To find my dysfunctional 70yr+ parents unbearable for hoarding + wittholding seeing wills?

[ByRoseSnake]

Apologies if this is the wrong place to post this - maybe I'll get some insights here. I just feel like I'm parenting my own 70+ parents at this point.

I'm tearing my hair out - and, basically, scared shitless. While I've been struggling to build an independent life and career 300+ miles away for the past 10yrs, my tiny family (who I love dearly) have pretended that time doesn't pass at all.
(For the record, there is only 3 in my family, due to family deaths and no extended family, enforced social isolation etc - so it's just my 2 parents, my older brother who is 30 + has never left home, apparently autistic but refuses to be formally diagnosed, or pull any of his own weight...)

While it's nice to pretend that time doesn't pass, I have been gently asking them for a long time about how they wish to proceed with wills, funerals, life after death, how to manage selling their house etc... This has been going on for over 6 yrs and I've had nothing from them. Apparently the wills are "none of my business", but it lives in "a draw" somewhere - according to my dad. My mum says she has no idea and sighs and just says "oh dear". They have no idea how much the house is even valued at... I'm in no way trying to dig around or pry, but should I at least know where they keep the wills, and have a basic awareness of what to do when they pass??

The main problem is that my dad is a high-functioning alcoholic, but also they are all chronic hoarders, saying for years they will "sort things out". It has only become worse. I'm talking having to make pathways of clutter just to enter certain rooms - in a 3 bedroom house. It is mostly my dad's chronic compulsive spending problem e.g. becoming obsessed with a musical instrument and spending his entire state pension on 3 different banjos that never get played again, because he decided he was interested in banjos after watching a YouTube video...
(for context: I visit home, spend 4hrs cleaning and sorting books, gadgets and crap into boxes, which my parents promise will be taken to charity shops/tip - only to visit 2 months later and it's back in the same place urrrghhh.)

I don't have complaints against people spending their own money - at whatever age - on what they enjoy, but his attitude deeply concerns me. When I earnestly asked "what would you like us (me) to do with all of this stuff when you pass? Shouldn't we be sorting out what is sentimental, of value and important now, rather than later?" He just replied - "I don't care. You can just pay to order a skip and throw it all in there. I'll be dead anyway."
:( Thanks Dad. I don't even know where family photos and documents are stored etc

Nobody else seems to have any awareness of how serious the situation is.
And my brother doesn't even know how to boil an egg, let alone help with these things - he just runs off to his room and says "that's your problem" to me... He hasn't even registered that he'll be homeless if this isn't established, once the time comes. He's been living at home for 10yrs and didn't even know what a metre reading was when I visited at Christmas. I'm definitely not becoming his replacement mummy.

But then I feel like I'll be entirely alone in the world - no family, and a huge amount of mess, memories and mental turmoil to clean up. And no idea about where and how money is going with house sale - or care homes, if that does come up.

It's keeping me up at night - while I'm just simply trying to build my own little life (while keeping the family peace!)

I'm so, so tired of feeling like I have to parent them all. I've tried so hard to talk to them rationally.
And yeah.
Scared shitless about the future AIBU for that, given circumstances?

If they leave the house to her brother wont sorting it be his problem anyway? Chances are the last one standing will need carehone and the house will get sold to pay for it anyway.

If it helps in any way, AgeUK do a booklet you can order for them to fill in called 'Lifebook' where they can record important information, where things are located, their wishes etc.
Just ordered it for my DH to take to his 90y old Mum so that he can use it as a starting point around what she wants going forward.

AgeUK Lifebook

@ByRoseSnake

Some useful websites if they haven't already been posted (I've read the OP'S comments but the FT)

https://www.gov.uk/when-someone-dies

https://www.thefarewellguide.co.uk/whattodowhensomeonedie

This latter one has some great resources.

I wanted to share my experiences just to let you know that I don't think YABU.

My parents who are 80 both have undiagnosed MH issues and until her dementia made it too difficult for her, my Mum was a huge hoarder. Repeated requests to try and get on top of the chaos in their house and make any plans for the future were met with flippant remarks or outright dismissal.

We finally managed to clear 2 rooms that were waist deep in old paperwork and rubbish after the dementia stopped my Mum getting too angry about it, but it was still a battle over every Tesco receipt from 1991 etc.
They are both now in ill health and struggling to live independently but still will not face up to day to day practicalities. My Dad is still compulsively buying stuff on Amazon and Ebay daily and continuing to fill the house with crap.
I am an only child, so it all falls on me. I would prefer them to have a comfortable life in a clean accessible house with carers coming in. This will never happen. I have to accept that they have the right to live their lives the way they want and, much like you, I will be the one filling the skip at the end of the day.

I totally sympathise with your worry about important or personal paperwork /photos being lost. My Mum had jumbled everything together and wads of old paper notes and jewellery were stuffed in to carrier bags alongside literal rubbish and old bits if paperwork that was no longer needed. The whole lot needed to be sorted item by item.

they more than likely have left everything to your brother including the house as they will be worried about where he will live etc - THAT is why they are refusing to let you se the will! YOU will be expected to look after them when they can’t and give up your family life for theirs and then they expect that you will take on your brother and babying him for the rest of his life l! With nothing to inherit! Make it VERY clear to them now that if that is what they are expecting that they need to rethink as ut WILL NOT!! And for gods sake STOP cleaning their bloody house!! They make the mess they can clean it up!!!

You can refuse to be an executor in the UK, provided you have not already acted on behalf of the estate ("intermeddled"). You must formally step down by signing a Deed of Renunciation (Form PA15) to give up your rights permanently, or apply to have "power reserved" if you might want to act later.

Steps to Take if You Do Not Want to Act:
Do Not Intermeddle: Do not pay bills, distribute assets, or close bank accounts. Doing so may prevent you from stepping down.
Renunciation (Permanent Step Down): Fill out Form PA15 (renunciation form) to formally give up your rights.
Power Reserved (Temporary Step Down): If other executors are acting, you can let them proceed while keeping the right to step in later if needed.
Appoint Someone Else: If you are the sole executor and wish to step down, you may need to fill out Form PA11 to appoint someone else.

Renouncing your role as executor does not stop you from being a beneficiary of the will. If you have already begun acting as executor, removing yourself becomes much more complex and may require a court order.

I think YABU to sort out boxes and not expect them to put everything back to be honest - that's Hoarders 101. Don't waste your time.

With respect to the rest - honestly if something only had sentimental value to your parents and not you yourself, you don't need it in your home. I have well-organised parents but they are aware I will be selling on some of their antique vases and silver etc as I have a small house. Obviously small things that mean something to me I will keep like wedding rings/marriage certificates/family photos.

(I also suspect that if your mum is a bit soft/feigns ignorance then the house will go to your brother and they won't tell you).

My children have adhd and autism and multiple other disabilities and are working!!! Autism is ZERO excuse not to be able to work! He is just being lazy

It’s the time element @Gaspanic, her stuff is all jumbled up it can't be just chucked. She admits herself that there is legal paperwork that she has no idea where it is. She lives over 200 miles away. We will probably have to live in her house for a couple of months. We have fortunately just retired but have had friends who have had to do this and work FT still.

A couple of things from personal experience.

re skipping everything. A very elderly aunt had to move into a care home. DH had to meet with Social work. Aunt’s flat had every cupboard and shelf crammed. You could see that she just lived on the surfaces. Social worker told him to throw everything into a skip.

It felt disrespectful to me, and I quietly bundled up things for recycling or donation. There were diaries, photos of her in the Wrens, and her travels during retirement. In the process I also found bank books, isas, backdated pensions, totally about quarter million. Which helped her enjoy her final months in the care home, and was passed on to her similarly very elderly sister after her death.

The other thing is, I’m in my seventies. My memory is not what it was, and I need the physical presence of my so-called crap to trigger my memories. And photos aren’t the same at all, especially on a screen and not in photos in my hand.

You know that not all autistic people are the same, right? And that their autism gives them different challenges and different options (or lack of them)?

I'm constantly amazed at the number of autism parents who will parrot the 'if you've met one person with autism...' trope, while at the same time acting as if their own child's autism is the only kind'.

You have my full sympathy - I am in a similar boat, no alcoholism to deal with but I am the eldest with chaotic parents, both hoarders.
I really wanted some kind of order and would go home regularly and do a clear out.

My parents were always well turned out and never had visitors to home so no one realised the bedlam in their house.

Then my Mum died suddenly. It was horrendous.
Now I see my Dad very regularly but not at his house, ever and we have a great time. I wish I had realised this earlier and done the same when Mum was around instead of trying to create some calm home - it was never going to happen.

Hello, very similar situation here. The actual "doing" of the work wasn't that hard and wrapped up pretty swiftly, all depends on your parents finances and what/how much they own. My DFs estate was relatively basic to organise and under the thresholds where it got legally complex.having a basic under of these bits may help you. It allowed us to do probate ourselves and it went super simply.

As others have noted there really isn't anything you can do to force them to face the reality, and you may find that your brother is favoured in the will. Which could be hard to swallow.

Some things to think about:

• One parent dying. Its likely to happen, are they prepared for this? It's almost messier. You have a codependent couple, one of which no longer has their person to lean on. There is often fall out from this e.g. care needs, financial etc. that are needed for decades longer. One potential positive could be that they have your your DB to lean on and he steps up.

• Distance. Like me, you are a long way from them, it's hard to organise things remotely. When the time comes you'll need to decide just how much time you want or can dedicate to this. I found it overwhelming and actually just paid someone to clear the house. I have the odd niggle about what I've lost sentimentally, but in all honesty I had to admit that I didn't have the mental or physical capacity at that time to do it myself.

• Your MH. It's easy for us to say just distance yourself from the stress, but it's not as easy in practice. An alternative is to lean into it and get some psychotherapy (not counselling) to help you explore this and hopefully equip you a bit better for when the time comes. It took me a few tries but was was invaluable for me when I found the right therapist.

I can sympathize with you Op. I was the eldest child of an alcoholic father. It does shape your outlook on life as you tend to get parentified as a young child and combined with ADHD (same here) can make you obsessive about looking out for everyone. I also had 2 siblings that were higher needs, but luckily one that wasn't. In the end my dad ended up looking after my mum for 5 years as she had a massive stroke. He then lived for 5 years after she passed so you cant predict life.
Don't panic about what others are saying about the house being left solely to your brother. This is unlikely as if they really considered him high needs they would have got him assessed years ago. They probably just don't mind him being there.
Have you tried another approach, such as concentrating on forming a closer relationship with your brother and getting him more independent rather than focusing on your parents or would that not be possible for you?

They are only in their 70's, and you are badgering them to clear their house out and show you their Wills, to basically prepare for their own deaths rather than living in the moment. I can see that they must find that quite intrusive and quite depressing!

My FIL and his partner are in their 70's, and would be furious if we suggested they do a death cleanse. They are still gallavanting all over the globe and having a whale of a time.

They could live another 20 years. Yes, the mess would be frustrating, but you can hire a house clearance company if you can't face doing it yourself. Re the house, you're going to have to sell it, and hopefully your brother will have enough to buy something smaller with his share.

I agree with pps advising you to drop it. I would say most elderly parents are similar to an extent although maybe not so extreme re. the hoarding.

My father wanted to talk about the important documents like wills and house deeds etc but my mother would never allow it. She was in complete denial.

Also they would never accept help with cleaning or tidying so the house became quite messy and cluttered. I used to offer to sort things but had to accept that they always said no.

Let them get on with it and yes you are stressing yourself out and you could have years and years more of this. My parents lived till their early 80s but I have several friends with parents in their 90s and still in their own homes.

I vote for the 'walk away and leave them to it' option.
I do appreciate that's easier said than done.

You are trying to parent them and they are behaving like children and resisting your interference!

The only solution is to stop, let them get on with it, and deal with it at the appropriate time.

No amount of making yourself stressed or clearing out two boxes which are then replaced is going to change what's happening.

I also wouldn't step up to sort out your brother, he's an adult, your parents are adults, let them be adults the best way they know how and keep your own ship afloat (which is hard enough!)

It is frustrating they won't do more or engage or think of the future but they won't and aren't and you banging your head on this wall won't help.

Look after yourself, your family and get support and help when the time comes to deal with them.

It's hard to judge just how disabled your brother is or if he is just spoiled. Keep in mind that son's of alcoholic dad's do suffer in ways that are unique to them.
It sounds like he may have Peter Pan Syndrome if he doesn't seem disabled in any obvious way. This can be caused by trauma in childhood. How was your relationship between your dad and brother? Alcoholics can be very unpredictable even ones that aren't violent and this could have impacted his confidence. You don't have to answer as this is a tough question but could give you some answers.

There's another thread somewhere about what people want to keep of their parents possessions.
It might be worth a read of different perspectives. The bottom line is that you don't have to keep anything and many, many people just keep a token item that reminds them.
I've known friends who just pack up their parents stuff and bring it home. Filling their own loft or garage forever with stuff they neither want nor need.
It doesn't get away from the job of sorting stuff out but it's not as hard as you might think. If they leave the house to your brother you'll have nothing to do. Just ask him for mum's ring or dad's banjo, whatever you choose.
If it's left to you both you'll have to .sell but you can get people in to clear.

From hoarding experience (gran) - if you see something you actually want to have, ask for it. Say it would look lovely in your home etc.
Anything else: Take anything you are offered, pretend you're grateful, then bin it at home as needed.

Maybe take some photos of the things you find sentimental that way you at least have that if you don't get the thing itself. Also take scans of the photos you want.

You are having a lot of anxiety of something is beyond your control and responsibility.
I voted YABU just because of that regardless of your good intentions.

Not to mention demanding POA on a mentally competent adult!