To find my dysfunctional 70yr+ parents unbearable for hoarding + wittholding seeing wills?

[ByRoseSnake]

Apologies if this is the wrong place to post this - maybe I'll get some insights here. I just feel like I'm parenting my own 70+ parents at this point.

I'm tearing my hair out - and, basically, scared shitless. While I've been struggling to build an independent life and career 300+ miles away for the past 10yrs, my tiny family (who I love dearly) have pretended that time doesn't pass at all.
(For the record, there is only 3 in my family, due to family deaths and no extended family, enforced social isolation etc - so it's just my 2 parents, my older brother who is 30 + has never left home, apparently autistic but refuses to be formally diagnosed, or pull any of his own weight...)

While it's nice to pretend that time doesn't pass, I have been gently asking them for a long time about how they wish to proceed with wills, funerals, life after death, how to manage selling their house etc... This has been going on for over 6 yrs and I've had nothing from them. Apparently the wills are "none of my business", but it lives in "a draw" somewhere - according to my dad. My mum says she has no idea and sighs and just says "oh dear". They have no idea how much the house is even valued at... I'm in no way trying to dig around or pry, but should I at least know where they keep the wills, and have a basic awareness of what to do when they pass??

The main problem is that my dad is a high-functioning alcoholic, but also they are all chronic hoarders, saying for years they will "sort things out". It has only become worse. I'm talking having to make pathways of clutter just to enter certain rooms - in a 3 bedroom house. It is mostly my dad's chronic compulsive spending problem e.g. becoming obsessed with a musical instrument and spending his entire state pension on 3 different banjos that never get played again, because he decided he was interested in banjos after watching a YouTube video...
(for context: I visit home, spend 4hrs cleaning and sorting books, gadgets and crap into boxes, which my parents promise will be taken to charity shops/tip - only to visit 2 months later and it's back in the same place urrrghhh.)

I don't have complaints against people spending their own money - at whatever age - on what they enjoy, but his attitude deeply concerns me. When I earnestly asked "what would you like us (me) to do with all of this stuff when you pass? Shouldn't we be sorting out what is sentimental, of value and important now, rather than later?" He just replied - "I don't care. You can just pay to order a skip and throw it all in there. I'll be dead anyway."
:( Thanks Dad. I don't even know where family photos and documents are stored etc

Nobody else seems to have any awareness of how serious the situation is.
And my brother doesn't even know how to boil an egg, let alone help with these things - he just runs off to his room and says "that's your problem" to me... He hasn't even registered that he'll be homeless if this isn't established, once the time comes. He's been living at home for 10yrs and didn't even know what a metre reading was when I visited at Christmas. I'm definitely not becoming his replacement mummy.

But then I feel like I'll be entirely alone in the world - no family, and a huge amount of mess, memories and mental turmoil to clean up. And no idea about where and how money is going with house sale - or care homes, if that does come up.

It's keeping me up at night - while I'm just simply trying to build my own little life (while keeping the family peace!)

I'm so, so tired of feeling like I have to parent them all. I've tried so hard to talk to them rationally.
And yeah.
Scared shitless about the future AIBU for that, given circumstances?

Oh my goodness, this exactly - these are my concerns. He can be great sometimes, and I truly hope he will be able to step up and also become more independent, but he also has my mum wrapped around his finger. Like your brother, he can be extremely demanding, at times quite manipulative, and also resents me for being the sibling who 'got away' and is (ostensibly) successful. I've heard him say some really nasty things about me. He also gets payrolled by my parents and brags about being able to buy things like new video games, then mutters something about me not being sensible with money lol (umm... my salary is spent on rent, bills, my own groceries etc!)

I still love him and feel protective, but it leaves a bitter taste when I've worked so hard for what I have with much less parental support - usually taking on all the emergency responsibility in the past, too, like when I had to drive my dad to A&E years ago while everyone else flapped. I think it would hurt to some extent if my parents left the house to him.

Nope, he's never lived independently. Other than the one year he tried university and basically stayed in his halls of residence room for the entire year, living on Tesco meal deals. And then decided it wasn't for him, so dropped out.

Ok, rant about brother over - but that's the picture!

Given their reluctance to talk about Wills, there's a strong chance they will refuse to discuss poa as well.

Have you tried talking from a concern about your brother angle? They might be more open to talking that way.

It's always difficult, I'd spoken to my dad but he didn't want a will and was too late for poa. My mum made a will as a result of what happened when my dad died so maybe that will happen in your families case.

I found if you push these things they put up barriers.

For the things that are personal to you- like photos- ask to borrow them for a surprise (slideshow/ photo collage) for some anniversary or big birthday that’s coming up. And then either forget to give them back or just get them copied…

Just carry on getting on with your own life. Why would you want to sort through their stuff to decide what is in the house that's sentimental and/or of value now? And the value of the house - well I assume you will know a ball park cos you have internet and you can see what houses in particular roads tend to cost so if you were wondering about what you might get for an inheritance you can work out kind a what it might be. Don't think like that about "their" money though. My MIL is not poor but currently having to spend hers on care which has pissed off DH's two siblings.

So, all this begs the question... do you know the house is worth a lot and want them to pass it on because of Rachel Reeves? A valid question.... and as it goes my DP's are passing stuff on now but they have more than could ever go in care or living costs.... but they came to that conclusion themselves. And as it goes had my DS and myself pissed away our lives asking about the value of DP's estate it would have all gone to charity. Every. Single. Penny.

Yes. Did that last year with my parents house after my dad died. If someone came across something they wanted they took it but everything else just got biffed. House cleaned, sold, job done.
If they own then brother will probably get half and be able to support himself. Being autistic doesn't make him stupid and he will learn to look out for himself soon enough.

Do they care as deeply about you?
They certainly aren’t giving the same energy as you.
Leave them to it and stop wasting your time worrying about something you can do nothing about

Yes, I can resonate with this - that's a good question. I was thinking particularly of things like family photos and letters, perhaps items that were incredibly special to my parents in their lives as a few mementos. I have asked, but I get quite vague answers.

But yes, I will also have to careful not myself to drift into hoarding! (I think it's considered inheritable?)

And again, just to clarify in response to some posters, I care deeply about my parents and their quality of life right now. I'm not pestering or waiting impatiently for them to die. But it is scary being left completely in the dark with no extended family, and I would appreciate some basic intel to prepare for when the inevitable happens.

But maybe some things won't change.

I think you need to separate what is in your control and what isn't.

You can't make your brother more independent, but you can make sure that he and your parents are aware that you will not be taking over his care.

You can't clear out their home whilst they are in it but they can be made aware that if they need to go into a home they may well not be able to take the things they value if you can't find them.

As for the will, you have no control at all and will just have to see what happens if they don't want to share. However, it sounds like they are quite disorganised and it's likely it will end up being the intestacy rules.

Older people often don’t like to think about their own mortality. My mum died intestate. It was fine and very easy to sort much easier than my dad’s estate and he had a will!

Sounds like you are getting wound up over something you can't control.

Never a good idea.

They have already told you that they don't care what happens to the stuff when they die.

You will be amazed how cheap and quick it is to order a massive skip and clear the place out

It's really as much of a problem as you want to make of it. At the moment all you are doing is annoying them and winding yourself up.

They'll be a time when you can actually take control and deal with the situation.

If you don't want to at any point you can just walk away.

They shouldn't have to live their lives to make it easier for you when they die. And you aren't obliged to deal with the mess they leave behind if you don't want to.

it depends if you’re reading on the app or a browser but on my phone you go to talk at the top of the screen and you get the list of all the different boards

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/elderly_parents

@ByRoseSnake you’re right to be concerned but you’ve focused on the wrong thing. It’s not their death you should be worried about, it’s living but not coping and needing support. Not wills but lasting power of attorney. Most utilities and all banks will refuse to deal with you without one, even for something as simple as a fault in the phone line needing fixing. A common scenario would be one of them has a stroke that leaves them needing help to wash, dress, toilet. Unfortunately everyone (doctors, social services) would assume with a younger adult at home that he would take over the basics of household management. It doesn’t sound like this is a realistic prospect for your family.

It’s a terrible thing to watch this slow motion car crash happen in front of you but all you can do is protect yourself. Stop trying to fix things now and save your energy for the real crises ahead. Drop into the Cockroach Cafe on the elderly parent board, it’s the long running general support thread for bad daughters dealing with elderly relatives.

I’m really confused as to why you think it’s anything to do with you. It’s their assets not yours. Why would you want to turf your brother out of his home when your parents die? Why would you want that?

You sounds really nosey, just out to get what money you can. If I were them I’d tell you to get lost too.

This is excellent advice. My late MIL was a hoarder. DH tried repeatedly to help her but she was having none of it.

When she died we filled three skips and were told by the local charity shops to stop bringing stuff.

Your parents could live for ages yet. Stop worrying, when the time comes it’s doable.

All families big and small have their problems and problem members it seems. Don't worry too much. Are your parents on good health? 70 is not necessarily on deaths door. If their health starts failing your brother will probably gradually have to do more which will stand him in good stead later. Most couples start doing the serious end of life planning when one becomes ill or dies. They have each other now and are probably just concentrating on living their best lives while they can.
My dad started buying random things when he retired. I think he just enjoyed the freedom of being able to after years of his wages being spent on supporting a family.

I don’t agree with this at all. It’s exceptionally selfish an avoidant not to have made a reasonable will and given a copy to someone who you have appointed as executor. Having lost 3 of my children’s grandparents and the 4th being at death’s door, I’ve had to sort a lot out. My MIL and FIL gave us their wills (which were a 50:50 split between their 2dc) and my MIL took care to do a Swedish death clean type thing. Mine (DM and DSF) were the same - Swedish death clean type thing, all documents in a box, will given and split evenly between children. This was considerate of them and reflects the caring people they were in life. Even given all this, you’re looking at a year ish to sort stuff out, especially if you are selling their home. It’s loads of paperwork and can be pretty time consuming and stressful. Both PILs and mine had even shown us all the bills in files and given us online banking access to their accounts. What it meant was that we could help them whilst alive as well. Buy them items they needed, help get stuff fixed, get them shopping. So normal family stuff. We knew their funeral and ashes wishes.

My dc know where our wills are and its split equally
between them. We aren’t at the death clean stage quite yet (we’re 40s) but we certainly will try to make things easy for the kids.

my father and stepmother -
different kettle of fish. Avoidant, uncommunicative, secretive, cruel, have a large property (the home I grew up in) stuffed with things that they have acquired/stolen. The fact that we have no idea where to find their wills or anything is very selfish. Especially as they have made me the executor. A shit load of work, with no clue about anything. I’m almost certain that I am not a beneficiary (probably they will have left me £1k or something) or done something sneaky to force me to do it. Again, reflects exactly who they are in life - selfish, secretive and abusive.

No one can force you to be an executor.

Is that right? So I just wait until it happens and refuse? Who would I refuse to?

All of the issues here are an interlinked chain reaction.

Looks like undiagnosed ND with your DF - this often leads to unhealthy coping mechanisms such as substance abuse - then we have the standard alcoholic squalor / hoarding because the person is not focused on managing their daily life.

This is likely life long. His ND and alcoholism hasn’t likely appeared from
no where although neurological and physical health will have been slowly eroded and his functioning deteriorated.

Whats important here is that you are an adult child of an alcoholic whos own emotional foundations were formed in an inadequate, neglectful and dysfunctional environment - this will have left you with emotional deficits that you need to prioritise to sort in you otherwise your own MH and emotional life will continue to be stunted. There is no way that anyone has come out of this family unscathed.

In such families there is often the workaholic, the over achiever, the manager, the controller. This is not a sustainable way to live. PP mentioned a terrible relationship you were in - that doesn’t surprise me as boundaries, low standards and not knowing when to leave a shit situation is what we were trained to accept / expect / tolerate.

Emotionally detach in your head - divert all of that hang wringing anxious energy away from projection on to them and their futile situation back on to you and your delayed, skewed, stunted emotional growth.

Get involved in Al Anon, Adult Children or Alcoholics, read Emotionally Immature Parents and especially Co-dependent No More by Melody Beattie.

When they die - that’s the easy bit - lawyer, skip, house clearers - the hard bit is the bit in between health, hospitals, carers etc for THREE people. Currently they are all ‘fine’ and making their own decisions. Put in distance and choose to invest in your own growth, stability etc.

Acceptance is your challenge here - their lives, choices etc - but then use your agency to develop a more robust sense of self that isn’t feeling so Co-dependent on their needs and possibly chooses bad partners. Get your ADHD sorted because although you might think it’s rocket fuel now in your 20/30 - it will pull the rug from under you when you have children and when you enter peri menopause

https://adultchildren.org/laundry-list/

Im in a similar position. You need to.let go of the idea of an inheritance. People in 3 bedroom houses in a poor state of maintenence and ill heath don't leave significant money after care fees. In which case, leave them to it and sort it all out once they've passed on or into care. Being an executor is an admin overhead and quite tedious but easy to wade through for anyone with basic admin skills.

I think that's a bit of a leap. More likely they just find her a bit obsessed with their deaths when they are trying to enjoy their golden years. The "oh dear" comment from the mother is something that generation do while thinking "here we go again". My MIL used it a lot to shut down a couple of her children when necessary. Said it worked every time.

Yep, I think I was completely naive to the extent that my brother said nasty things about me… to my mother’s neighbours and to my uncle (her brother), and to my second cousin (my mother’s cousin). The cousin died and left my brother a large amount. It slowly became apparent that my uncle had aligned himself with my brother and I don’t hear from him anymore. I’ve only recently heard the term ‘flying monkey’ and I think it perfectly describes my experience of my brother.

For someone who’s apparently severely autistic, he’s highly manipulative, sharp, quick witted, opportunistic. Terrible qualities to have in a sibling. I keep a safe distance as I know all he has to do is cry and my defences will start to fall.

My DP’s are in their 80’s and I have no idea about their wills etc.
My aren’t hoarders though, but they have lots of stuff that brings them joy. I have lots of stuff too!
I would stop worrying about it, take a step back and remember they are adults. They aren’t going to change.

I think you're nakung someone else's business yours.

Quite frankly they're probably going to leave the house to your brother so he's not homeless and he'll just live in their stuff.

If you are worried about the future.

You could ask both your parents to set up "power of attorney" individually for both health & wealth.
Once it is set up, they keep it in place until it is ready to use in the future if their health fails.

You & your brother can also do this for yourself too

You keep a copy too.

You do not need a solicitor, you can do it all online, but you will need someone that knows them to sign the document eg friend, neighbour, shop keeper, doctor etc

www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney

The thing is, often when people age, they do revert to children and the parent/child roles can reverse. My mum said she wanted me to be her mum, she’s dying, bed bound and in nappies. That’s why she put arrangements in place before this happened. And I am grateful.