To find my dysfunctional 70yr+ parents unbearable for hoarding + wittholding seeing wills?

[ByRoseSnake]

Apologies if this is the wrong place to post this - maybe I'll get some insights here. I just feel like I'm parenting my own 70+ parents at this point.

I'm tearing my hair out - and, basically, scared shitless. While I've been struggling to build an independent life and career 300+ miles away for the past 10yrs, my tiny family (who I love dearly) have pretended that time doesn't pass at all.
(For the record, there is only 3 in my family, due to family deaths and no extended family, enforced social isolation etc - so it's just my 2 parents, my older brother who is 30 + has never left home, apparently autistic but refuses to be formally diagnosed, or pull any of his own weight...)

While it's nice to pretend that time doesn't pass, I have been gently asking them for a long time about how they wish to proceed with wills, funerals, life after death, how to manage selling their house etc... This has been going on for over 6 yrs and I've had nothing from them. Apparently the wills are "none of my business", but it lives in "a draw" somewhere - according to my dad. My mum says she has no idea and sighs and just says "oh dear". They have no idea how much the house is even valued at... I'm in no way trying to dig around or pry, but should I at least know where they keep the wills, and have a basic awareness of what to do when they pass??

The main problem is that my dad is a high-functioning alcoholic, but also they are all chronic hoarders, saying for years they will "sort things out". It has only become worse. I'm talking having to make pathways of clutter just to enter certain rooms - in a 3 bedroom house. It is mostly my dad's chronic compulsive spending problem e.g. becoming obsessed with a musical instrument and spending his entire state pension on 3 different banjos that never get played again, because he decided he was interested in banjos after watching a YouTube video...
(for context: I visit home, spend 4hrs cleaning and sorting books, gadgets and crap into boxes, which my parents promise will be taken to charity shops/tip - only to visit 2 months later and it's back in the same place urrrghhh.)

I don't have complaints against people spending their own money - at whatever age - on what they enjoy, but his attitude deeply concerns me. When I earnestly asked "what would you like us (me) to do with all of this stuff when you pass? Shouldn't we be sorting out what is sentimental, of value and important now, rather than later?" He just replied - "I don't care. You can just pay to order a skip and throw it all in there. I'll be dead anyway."
:( Thanks Dad. I don't even know where family photos and documents are stored etc

Nobody else seems to have any awareness of how serious the situation is.
And my brother doesn't even know how to boil an egg, let alone help with these things - he just runs off to his room and says "that's your problem" to me... He hasn't even registered that he'll be homeless if this isn't established, once the time comes. He's been living at home for 10yrs and didn't even know what a metre reading was when I visited at Christmas. I'm definitely not becoming his replacement mummy.

But then I feel like I'll be entirely alone in the world - no family, and a huge amount of mess, memories and mental turmoil to clean up. And no idea about where and how money is going with house sale - or care homes, if that does come up.

It's keeping me up at night - while I'm just simply trying to build my own little life (while keeping the family peace!)

I'm so, so tired of feeling like I have to parent them all. I've tried so hard to talk to them rationally.
And yeah.
Scared shitless about the future AIBU for that, given circumstances?

Sadly not uncommon. Neither my parents wanted to talk about death. Fortunately mum.had a will.

A valid option is to nothing until you have to. Sort through what you want to keep and bin the rest. If there is direction on what goes to who then it's equally valid that nothing needs keeping either.

Dh has yet to deal with this. He has asked about wills, poa. Told both exist but neither told about where the will is or how to contact the poa if needed. So the questions was asked. Largely ignored. The next step is to forget about it until there is no choice. When there us no way to contact any poa, when no will turns up. Deal with then.

Unhelpful siblings then get their hands forced. Sad but true. You have remember this is your parents choice and wishes. Even if reckless and unhelpful sadly

Just to jump in, you are correct that an executor can resign at any time as long as they have not “intetmeddled” with the Will. So you can’t start being an executor and dealing with the estate and then bow out, you have to say no immediately pretty much. And when I say immediately I mean after death. You can agree to be someone’s executor but it’s not binding and you don’t sign anything to that effect (normally executors are discouraged from even witnessing the will). But you are at perfect liberty to refuse to act after death, you cannot be forced into it.

That said, if you are also a beneficiary then being an executor is probably in your best interests for obvious reasons. So in a real sense you can be “forced” if you want to obtain probate and get the funds from the estate. However, you can appoint a lawyer to do it all for you and you simply just sign off on everything. That comes with cost of course.

I’m an eldest daughter, as are many of my friends and I completely understand your frustration. It always seems to be the ‘responsible’ eldest daughter who has to sort out the mess that’s left behind. When my father sold his house, yes he got a house clearance company in, but I had to sort out 12 plastic crates of paperwork first, and then get a shredding company in. And that won’t be easy if you’re 300 miles away. He was then in a nursing home for 6 years, but I then acquired a huge filing cabinet full of more paperwork to sort out. I also have a severely autistic brother who is looked after by the NHS, which is an ongoing concern.
I do suggest you ask your parents where they keep all their financial and legal paperwork in the kindest way you can. Priorities would be a PoA, the will, bank statements, deeds of the house, insurance policies etc. If they’re hoarders,like my dad, they may well have stacks of paperwork.
The ‘tell us once’ service and also the ‘Death Notification Service’ for banks , which is less widely known, are really useful. I would also get a solicitor to do all the probate and be the executor, if there’s enough money in the estate. It will save you hours of hassled
Having been through similar myself, you are definitely not being unreasonable.

Just to add, thank you for this post. It is definitely true (without going into details) that we are both severely traumatised from our experiences growing up with a volatile and unpredictable dad who could frequently become verbally and physically abusive.

Paradoxically, I took on the caretaking role in the house from an early age, but fled the nest ASAP and have lived + worked far away without any familial support (14+yrs), yet continue to have to swoop in when things become unmanageable. Yet I still try and keep interactions civil and friendly - and still, frequently chastised for being a 'daddy's girl'.
I have paid for private therapy out of my own pocket for many years to try and overcome these wounds.

By brother, on the other hand, remains deeply wounded by the events that unfolded, but he would go hide away in his room as we tried to deal with the aftermath. Despite his reliance on my parents' care, he actually never talks to my dad and outspokenly tells me and my mum that he 'hates him and wishes he could just die'. Despite living in the same house, without any attempt to move out. i don't understand. It's either coming from a place of fear and Peter Pan syndrome, or the idea that he will somehow supplant my dad as the master of the house. He worships my mother, and I have no worry that he would ever lack in caregiving for her, but their relationship is also slightly... odd. He still has cuddles with her on the sofa and uses her as his main confidante.
He's a 30yr old fully grown man... I can kinda understand where my dad is coming from with some criticisms...

Brother refuses to engage with any sort of counselling, therapy or diagnosis. Again - out of my control. But so upsetting to witness.

So you can see how the house and wills situation is almost adjacent to these other issues 😶
This probably deserves another thread at some distant point in the future lol. It's so off tangent at this point

But thanks everyone for the advice and perspectives <3

OP I'm so sorry to hear this and I'll say again, do please join us in the Elderly Parents section of this board.

Just a thought OP, about sentimental items. Sentimental to YOU, that is.

We have what we call The Family Wall in our house which is full of photographs of grandparents, parents, siblings, cousins, weddings, birthdays, graduations, anniversaries, schooldays, holidays. We got the idea from other people's houses, so I don't think this is a particularly unusual thing to do.

Could you have a conversation with your mum about specific e.g. photographs that you might want for your Family Wall? 'Mum, I saw in a magazine this collage of family photos and I think I'd like to create one for myself - do you have any photos of me and brother in school uniform / from <particular event> / of Aunty Mabel / of your wedding / of you and Dad when you were young or in school?

In this way you might be able to get access to photos important to you, without causing any distress or pushback from them?

@nkgp here's how to cancel being an executor https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-pa15-give-up-probate-executor-rights
Basically you just fill in a form and it's done. They will never know you did it, as they'll be dead. Don't even consider being someone's executor unless you really, really want to - it's a shitload of work for no thanks at all.

@ByRoseSnake

If there was a law against caring too much, you’d get thrown in the slammer.

I hope you can find peace in knowing that it’s going to happen whether they have a spotless house or a frightening house.

And I promise that one day all you’ll remember will be the laughter and the smiles and the happy times you shared.

I promise - because my dad took his own life and let me tell you, it was a nightmare.
But many years on now, I only have happy memories.
And if I do, so will you. Cross my heart.

Much love. ❤️

My dad's the same and I don't think you're unreasonable feeling that way, but as others have said it's up to them and nothing you can do about it until the time comes.

I would try to just put it out of your mind and have no expectation that you'll receive anything. That way anything you do receive will be a pleasant surprise.

My dad's house is absolutely stuffed to the rafters with tat, and I have already decided that for the sake of my own wellbeing I am just going to get a charity shop or house clearance company to come and take it all away rather than feel like I have to sift through it.

If you can't find a will after they have passed away you can go to a solicitor specialising in bereavement and ask them to help. They can do a search to see if a will has been registered anywhere and if not the default rules of probate will apply.

The other point I’d make is that you might need to face the fact that your worst case scenario is that your parents may have made your brother the sole beneficiary of their estate due to his ‘need’ being greater than yours in their eyes and you the executor

Just to say that you can renounce being an executor, so your sibling would have to instruct a solicitor to sort out the bequest in that case. You do not have to do it.

I'd leave them to it. They are only in their 70s, not 90s. They could easily last another 20 years. Don't ruin your best years worrying about it.

This is a great suggestion, especially as things like photos and mementos could easily be lost amongst the hoarded items. Many people have said it’s fine just to use a house clearance service, but this runs the risk of sentiment items being disposed of. We used a house clearance service for my mum’s house, but only after we’d gone through and got all the paperwork, photos, mementos etc that we wanted.

I’d also suggest @ByRoseSnake that if there are any items still in the house that belong to you (old schoolwork etc) and you want to keep them, you should start taking them home over your next few visits. Your parents shouldn’t object, and it means there’s one less thing to deal with when things come to a head.

I agree that this is something you should be thinking about now, even if your parents are reasonably healthy at the moment. My experience with my PIL is that they were healthy in their early 70s, but now they are in their late 70s and have various health issues plus FIL is showing signs of dementia. MIL had an operation last year where she was in hospital for a while, and it was quite eye-opening (and upsetting) to see how FIL struggled without her.

It was stressful enough without having to deal with the additional issues that you have with your father and the hoarding. PIL have made wills, but DH and his brother are trying to sort out Power of Attorney and struggling as MIL says she wants to arrange it, but keeps putting it off. Having been through a similar situation with my mum, I know that things are likely to get more difficult 😞

This is very sad. There are so many victims here.

Trauma responses can be fight, flight, freeze, fawn, flop - seems that you took flight - but your brother is stuck in freeze or flop - also maybe some repressed fight. Not sure where your DM is - fawn probably.

Seems like your DB is paralysed in his freeze - might not be spoiled at all - or if he is it’s maybe your DMs guilt?

All very messy, enmeshed and tragic. You will be most effective to keep your distance and not get sucked in to this futile and toxic energy but maybe having some compassion for your DB and DM.

There is an outstanding podcast called "Overcoming Compulsive Hoarding" hosted by someone who has a hoarding disorder. She interviews all sorts of people including children of hoarders - I really recommend it!

@ByRoseSnake You've only said a few little things, and it's obvious that there's a lot more going on in this family than you've said. But your father is an abuser, isn't he? Mine was too. Every time I read about children growing up with that, they would be described as badly behaved, acting out, violent. I was never like that and so for a long time I thought I'd coped and it hadn't affected me. I was wrong. I had a survival strategy, but it looked like yours - rushing in to fix things, desperate to solve every problem, always helpful. I didn't know at the time, but it's a form of control. Keep them happy and then you won't get in trouble and the abuse won't be so bad. It's driven by anxiety and I sensed from what you've said that you've got massive anxiety around your family and you're still trying to alleviate it by 'helping.'

Really, this isn't about your family at all, it's about you. It's time to let that survival strategy go. It serves you well in childhood. It got you to adulthood, and it got you the hell out of there. But it isn't serving you now.

You will not be in trouble if you don't fix it. You are safe now. You've got out. You've got distance, your own place to live, financial independence. It's safe to say no. Your dad can't hurt you any more.

You do not have to do anything to fix your parents, their living situation, or your brother. Any sense that you do is your anxiety speaking and it's not true.

Let your mother and brother rescue themselves, or not.

You can acknowledge that the mess is awful and upsetting, AND you can decide that it's not your mess to clean up.

You can refuse to clear the house.
You can refuse to deal with the funeral, the body, the will, the end of life care, your brother, and it will be ok. The world will not end. Services exist to take care of all of these things. Someone else can sort all of these things. You aren't the only person in the world who can take care of it. Let someone else carry that burden.

Please get more therapy if you can afford it. Letting go is really hard, I know, but you need to do it for your own health and well being.

I’m well aware of that but I don’t think many people screaming about it realise that POA doesn’t mean they suddenly get to make the decisions.

This, OP. Excellent advice

That's why I said at first opportunity. But your explanation was very clear and as I am in New Zealand you would have a more accurate understanding of UK law anyway.

Lighten up.

My parents are 80+ one with Parkinson’s. I have a brother who lives fairly near them who is almost certainly ASD. He is with the woman he had kids with but has had various affairs, but doesn’t have the bottle to split. He has a house in his name, they’re not married and periodically he leaves and runs to mum and dads for a few months. My parents are increasingly secretive about what they want to happen as they get more frail, have given brother POA as well as executor of their will. They don’t have a lot but you would think it was a fortune the way they mention it then change the subject. I’ve grieved for the fact that I won’t get a memory of them to keep, but I’m almost mourning them while they’re alive?

Likeyou, op, I moved away to get a career and build a life for myself. They much preferred my brother being dependent on them. You can’t change them, only your reaction to them. Step back and let them get on with it.

Having been through similar... I am very much in this camp. My lot enjoyed the drama of making everything as crisis ridden as possible. So I don't envy you

Having said that... could you have a chat with someone like their local Age Concern. they would have some useful, practical suggestions.
It might be possible to see what local services are available, eg gardening, maintenance... that are approved for older people.

Also. I recommend you read Martin Lewis's articles about getting power of attorney.. (and also planning your own will - there are "free will" services - no one should die intestate, and I imagine your parents would be unable to cope with it) .

Attachment to things...t you mention family photos and mementos.. Why not root out some of the photos next time you visit.. and tell them you will put them in an album. What do you most need in terms of memories? Find them and then forget the rest. They don't seem to care about their furniture, clothes, stuff in the garage... so why waste your life thinking about it.

But really, I think you need to decide how much you are able/want to do, allocate some time to it, but overall focus on your own life and what you want from it.

It's more common than you may think for one child to carry the whole burden, and for their siblings to do nothing. I may as well have been an only child when my mother died.........

I do feel for you and you're obviously having a hard time over this. However, I'm in my 70s and when I look back on the anxiety I had over my parents (alcoholic father and 'difficult' mother) I realise that all the worrying I did changed absolutely nothing. I was overseas when they died and had to come back to sort out the house and the estate and it wasn't at all easy, but as an only child I just had to manage. And I did. I've told my DD (who is also overseas) to get in a house clearance company and use a solicitor to deal with everything when we die. Meanwhile, we will carry on living with our many, many possessions in our very large house and enjoy the time that is left to us!

I'm decluttering nowadays. Luckily we downsized a decade ago so a lot had to go then. I emptied the pan drawer today to clean. An old frying pan DH threw out and some other bits. I gave my cleaner scented candles we'd been gifted last week because she loved them. I'm trying.

Your parent's wills are none of your business nor what they intend to do with their possessions which are probably important to them.
70+ (you don't say if they are early, mid or late 70s) is hardly at death's door.
I could understand if you had one parent left who was terminally ill with not much time left but your behaviour seems intrusive and upsetting.
Think of how they must feel when you come around asking about their will, their deaths and what to do with their stuff when they die?? Very upset I suspect!
My greedy, money grubbing sister in law has been waiting impatiently for years for her parents to die so that she can get her hands on their estate and has planned a holiday after they pass on.
As for your brother, you won't be able to change him and things will take their natural course. I know this from my own experience.
My advice is butt out and let them live their lives and stop questioning them about their wills and possessions! Live your own life!

I massively sympathise with you, my step mum died unexpectedly and suddenly recently and she was a massive hoarder. We could hardly make our way through her house as she had just ordered things and stacked everything all over the house. I didn’t know where her will was and had to ring round local solicitors until I found who had it. The stress of trying to go through everything and salvage sentimental items or items of value has taken a toll on my health. I have had to give up and arranged a house clearer to come and take everything. She would have been mortified to know that we had had to do this as she always said she intended to clear up. If your parents won’t sort things out then theres not much you can do and make it clear to them that unless they tell you their wishes then you’ll just have to do what you think is best. Are you an executor? I would avoid being one if you can, it’s a nightmare!