To find my dysfunctional 70yr+ parents unbearable for hoarding + wittholding seeing wills?

[ByRoseSnake]

Apologies if this is the wrong place to post this - maybe I'll get some insights here. I just feel like I'm parenting my own 70+ parents at this point.

I'm tearing my hair out - and, basically, scared shitless. While I've been struggling to build an independent life and career 300+ miles away for the past 10yrs, my tiny family (who I love dearly) have pretended that time doesn't pass at all.
(For the record, there is only 3 in my family, due to family deaths and no extended family, enforced social isolation etc - so it's just my 2 parents, my older brother who is 30 + has never left home, apparently autistic but refuses to be formally diagnosed, or pull any of his own weight...)

While it's nice to pretend that time doesn't pass, I have been gently asking them for a long time about how they wish to proceed with wills, funerals, life after death, how to manage selling their house etc... This has been going on for over 6 yrs and I've had nothing from them. Apparently the wills are "none of my business", but it lives in "a draw" somewhere - according to my dad. My mum says she has no idea and sighs and just says "oh dear". They have no idea how much the house is even valued at... I'm in no way trying to dig around or pry, but should I at least know where they keep the wills, and have a basic awareness of what to do when they pass??

The main problem is that my dad is a high-functioning alcoholic, but also they are all chronic hoarders, saying for years they will "sort things out". It has only become worse. I'm talking having to make pathways of clutter just to enter certain rooms - in a 3 bedroom house. It is mostly my dad's chronic compulsive spending problem e.g. becoming obsessed with a musical instrument and spending his entire state pension on 3 different banjos that never get played again, because he decided he was interested in banjos after watching a YouTube video...
(for context: I visit home, spend 4hrs cleaning and sorting books, gadgets and crap into boxes, which my parents promise will be taken to charity shops/tip - only to visit 2 months later and it's back in the same place urrrghhh.)

I don't have complaints against people spending their own money - at whatever age - on what they enjoy, but his attitude deeply concerns me. When I earnestly asked "what would you like us (me) to do with all of this stuff when you pass? Shouldn't we be sorting out what is sentimental, of value and important now, rather than later?" He just replied - "I don't care. You can just pay to order a skip and throw it all in there. I'll be dead anyway."
:( Thanks Dad. I don't even know where family photos and documents are stored etc

Nobody else seems to have any awareness of how serious the situation is.
And my brother doesn't even know how to boil an egg, let alone help with these things - he just runs off to his room and says "that's your problem" to me... He hasn't even registered that he'll be homeless if this isn't established, once the time comes. He's been living at home for 10yrs and didn't even know what a metre reading was when I visited at Christmas. I'm definitely not becoming his replacement mummy.

But then I feel like I'll be entirely alone in the world - no family, and a huge amount of mess, memories and mental turmoil to clean up. And no idea about where and how money is going with house sale - or care homes, if that does come up.

It's keeping me up at night - while I'm just simply trying to build my own little life (while keeping the family peace!)

I'm so, so tired of feeling like I have to parent them all. I've tried so hard to talk to them rationally.
And yeah.
Scared shitless about the future AIBU for that, given circumstances?

If my daughter lived 300 miles away, and each time she visited, she lectured me about my home and my lifestyle, instead of letting me enjoy her rare company, if be so upset and disappointed.

And I speak as someone who has spent the last two years living the nightmare of dealing with my mum's estate and a shipping container full of both absolute rubbish, and treasures from my childhood.

Nothing you can do at this point is going to make a difference, frankly. And the more you let your attitude during your visits spoil your parents relationship with you, the more likely they are to favour your sibling.

The lawyer. You justvrecuse yourself at the first opportunity. Did you actually sign the will? Even if you did sign up you can still recuse.

I think it's completely reasonable to be concerned when you see people you love heading for a cliff edge. So here's my prediction on the whole thing...

Dad's health will go down hill leading to him needing care. If there's not enough income to the household then the local council will need to finance this. Mom (and DB) can't be kicked out of the house to pay for care home fees because they live there and can't be made homeless. If Dad's pension(s) are the main income for the household it will need to be mostly ignored for care costs as it's needed to support Mom (and DB).

When Dad dies the will should be found so his wishes can be carried out. This should result in some amount of tidying to find it. Meanwhile you could check the land registry for the house to see if the house is in his name only. I think there is also a will registry that you might check to see if the will is registered (check for Mom as well). If no will can be found under rules of intestacy everything will go to Mom.

Repeat the scenario for Mom but likely with less money as women generally have less money and pension income. But then there's the issue of what about DB. Unless he has a diagnosis of some sort the council may want the house sold if Mom is in a care home. Or they may simply place a lien on the house so they get their money back when it's eventually sold.

Then there's the issue of what happens when Mom goes. Does she have a will? It may be that Dad thought his will was sufficient for both. (lots of people think this). But without her will again intestacy would say that you and DB split the estate evenly. Does that mean you sell the house and DB has to find somewhere else to live? Do you leave him there with all the clutter, no income and no way to maintain the house?

The wild card factor is whether there are any powers of attorney for anyone. It sounds like the 3 of them are managing, just. So if Dad is looking after everything but becomes incapacitated who will make decisions on finances and any health issues? There needs to be both POAs for all 3 of them likely naming you as the one that can leap in to the rescue. My guess is that this hasn't been done and by the time it's needed it will be too late to put them in place. Which means social services will be in charge. Very sad.

Not sure if that helps at all but that's my take on it.

I think a lot of women/daughters deal with this to a certain degree.

For your own happiness, I would suggest you step back mentally and physically. Set up cleaning service for them. Remind yourself that these are all adults and if they are not worried, you should not worry for them. All this talk about death is not good for anyone, either.

Time is slipping by for you, too. I'd focus on your current adult life and put your energy into the positive things you have going for you in your present life. Of course it makes sense that you will worry about things with your childhood family, but I think you need to work on not letting it be so much of a problem for you as this seems to have been going on for years now and nothing has changed, time has only passed.

They're planning to leave everything to your brother, that's why they don't want to talk about it. He will have been working on them for years.

Once they're gone he will expect you to take over the mummy role, to whatever degree you are willing.

You say your parents are in their 70s and that you have been on at them about this for 6 years. You really need to stop. Your parents could live for several more years, even a few decades. It will no doubt be difficult once they do both pass away, but cross that bridge when you come to it and enjoy what time you have left with them.

The house clear out costs can come out of the estate. Leave them to it.
Maybe they’ll leave your brother there. It is easy to assume he is lazy but most adults wouldn’t choose that lifestyle without some sort of dependency on their parents.

People are saying your brother is an adult, but if he has severe needs, he is actually more like a child. No one can diagnose him online, but if he genuinely does have cognitive issues that are very problematic, leaving him to deal with all of this would be like abandoning a child (obviously not everyone with the condition you think he has can't live independently, but I am only going from what you have said). It was really your parents' job, not yours, to have him diagnosed and plans put in place for his care, if he's never going to be able to care for himself, but it sounds as if your parents have issues themselves. I would contact social services about him if you really feel he isn't capable of caring for himself when they die, in the same way I would contact them about a child in need.
Whether you feel your parents need intervention is another matter.

My thoughts too. I can understand @ByRoseSnake feeling frustrated but really they need to leave them be. Very difficult I know.

I'm strongly inclined to agree with this.

I get that you're looking at it all and thinking 'ffs, I'm going to be stuck with sorting this out one day!'

But you really can't be keeping on at people about their Wills, it's literally none of your business at this time. The very most you are reasonable to ask of someone who doesn't want to discuss their Will with you is:

'When the time comes, where should I look for your Will, or has someone else been given the details?' - after all they might have named a solicitor as executor it's nothing to do with you, and

'does your Will have funeral instructions or have you written that somewhere else/do you want to talk about it'

and if they don't, and it doesn't, you just do what you think is best when the time comes.

I can relate to this as the parent. When my dd and husband visit, infrequently because they live far away, I catch them looking at my stuff. I am not quite the minimalist my late DH would have liked but I am very tidy and I prune stuff regularly and don’t replace. I know what they’re thinking and yes this is a big house with many many books but my goodness it does annoy me. Mainly because they don’t say anything but stand or stare looking. For what it’s worth I would say either leave them alone for a bit or if you do some clearing for charity etc then take it away yourself. But at the end of the day it’s a home for three adults and could well be for another ten years or more. You surely don’t want to be this stressed for that length of time. Live your life. Best wishes

If your anxiety is stopping you sleeping at night and enjoying your own life then perhaps you could have like a short course of therapy to deal with that anxiety and that may help you separate from your parents.

Thank you, this is the most cogent and perhaps realistic timeline of events that I suspect. It just makes me a little sad that after a lifetime of hard work and building a family (admittedly a dysfunctional one) can just slip away down the drain with nothing to show for it. My lovely mum is indeed lovely, but entirely dependent on my dad, and I do fear that her reluctance to talk about it is based on the knowledge that she doesn't yet have a will and is also too out of her depth to tackle it.

I have also been out of my depth understanding the process, hence why I've been trying to educate myself more :)

I wouldn’t worry about funerals. You don’t even need to have one.

Your description of a life slipping down the drain with nothing to show for it is very very sad. Your parents have capacity in making choices. They are living their life. That is what life is for. They are lucky that they have to freedom to make their own decisions.

And your brother, you don’t know if he has been deemed incapable of work and therefore gets PIP which will support him. Don’t blight the next 10 / 15 years of your life.

This could go on for years and years ... so stop worrying and keep on living your life and do the things you want to do.
Stop cleaning and sorting just stop.
Honestly you are gaining nothing from doing this let them be dysfunctional.
As for your brother leave him to his useless self you are right you are not his mummy .
Stop ... and live for you in the now .

My friend had this worry 60 year old brother had never left home. Big house widowed mother, they were told nothing. Three years ago mum died. She left everything to son. They did help him sort out mum's stuff.

In three years he's filled a five bedroom house with his crap. He's a decade and more younger than his siblings. God knows who'll have to deal with that mess one day

If they leave the house to your brother just back away. If he comes running to you tell him you've offered plenty over the years and they've always refused. He will have to learn to run the house and if he cant he will have to clear it , sell it and go into some kind of warden accommodation if he cant manage.
If its left to you both he will still probably want to stay in the house. Maybe best to let him and give up the inheritance for an easier life.
Alternatively, hire a house clearance company, they can find and give you the photos/important paperwork. Then sell the house, go your separate ways

As a PP noted, there will be an expectation from social services that your brother provide some elements of care if he's living at home. Without a diagnosis proving he can't do this, my expectation will be there will be an assumption he can do things like cook meals, do housework etc, especially if he's not working. Unless he can prove he can't do this, they'll assume he can and that it's happening. There was virtually no help for my family member in the home despite injuries to self and others. No-one in SS cared or the NHS cared much. This is when family has to step in.

It'll be a real test of his character when his parents can no longer do everything for him. You won't know which way it'll go until that happens. Let's hope he steps up.

And yes it's sad that people end up with nothing and having to pay for their own care but that is unfortunately how it is. I do think it's often unfair in terms of who gets funded and who doesn't, but it is what it is. I have a relative who's just spent 200k on care and the LA will now have to pick up the tab (they're very well cared for in the care home and could carry on for years I think).

As the person who is looking after her 75 and 78 year old parents I'm so glad that I was able to have sensible conversations with them about what their wishes are around everything from their healthcare to their money. I do worry about it as it will all fall to me to sort out and I am VERY grateful that my mum at least recognises that and wants to not make my life any harder than it's going to be, once one or both of them go.

We had a sorting everything out session a couple of years ago, and most of it is a one and done situation. I now know things like what their preferences are for cremation and burial. Both I, and their respective spouses have POA for if they become incapacitated, for both finance and health. I know where to find their wills, and things like which objects have inherited significance so that I will either keep them and know a bit about their history, or offer to other family members before they end up in the proverbial skip.

It turned out that I had put far more forethought into what would happen if one or both of them needed care (and when they die) than they had, and they've updated POA and wills as a result. Not least because one has been estranged from their sibling but hadn't updated their will or POA for 20+ years to reflect that!

(To everyone:)
If your adult child "does this to you" and is a sensible sort, PLEASE talk to them. Even better, instigate the conversations. You don't have to divulge anything to them that you don't want to, but if they're likely the ones who are going to have to deal with everything when you go, please do your best in advance to make it as easy as you can for them. Nobody wants to become mentally or physically incapacitated but e.g. dementia is a cruel beast and IF it were to strike you in the future, it's in your own and your family's best interest to have made your wishes clear and other plans long before you thought you needed them.

Same plea goes to everybody of any age. A friend of mine's husband went from fit and healthy to diagnosis and dead from cancer within 8 weeks. He was 38, and has left her with a whole load of shit to deal with that could have been better prepared for. You never know when your loved ones are going to have to deal with your death, and if you care about them (and your future self who may be reliant upon them to make decisions for you), why on earth wouldn't you want to make life easier for them?

Though LPA is not possible once competency is lost.
It can only be done by a competent adult. DH and I did ours years ago.

Sorting out who you want to make your decisions for you in the future IF future you loses mental capacity can ONLY be done as a mentally competent adult FFS.

The time to consider it (separately for finance and health) and to put it into place is very much whilst you are a mentally competent adult.

If you lose capacity and you don't have a POA in place, your relatives' hands will be tied. Somebody will need to apply to the Court of Protection to be apointed as your deputy. This can be a lengthy and costly process, and you can't choose who your deputy is, so for example in the OP's parents case it could end up as their son who makes questionable decisions, or a social worker. If it is a social worker and say you need a care home, you'll end up with the most basic care package in the cheapest care home likely a long way from your friends and family, and said friends and family won't have any say in it.

I cannot stress enough: the time to think about and appoint a POA is before you need it!!

@StrictlyAFemaleFemale

Thank you - I read my post over again and it sounds extremely far fetched. It’s nice to have someone confirm it - as bizarre and tragic as it was.
I honestly don’t remember what she was buried under, just that she could not get out from the large pile that was on top of her.
So tragic.
And yes - I think there’s companies you can hire, too, but I don’t know where to find them.
I recall the hoarders having difficulty letting go of just about anything when the removal people were there - like boxes of straws or plastic spoons or random things they’d never need - the need to hoard was so strong.
It’s truly heartbreaking.
And even once their house is cleaned out, what’re the chances they won’t fill it up again?
That’s where the psychological treatment comes in. And you just feel so bad for them - because something nearly always happened in their life to trigger the hoarding behaviour.
They need specialized treatment, but they have to genuinely want to get better.
Thanks again. ❤️