Can we stop acting like everyone has an equal capability to become well off?

[DeluluTaylor]

Based on the pension thread but not about OP. All this ‘why do people spend their whole lives on MW’ is so woefully ignorant. Some people don’t have a choice.
Neurodiversity
confidence
childcare availability
institutional racism
learning disabilities
trauma and it’s impact
Lifelong insecure housing
Being able to speak English but not write it
So many, many reasons why it is difficult to climb up the ladder. I’ve never been able to as I don’t have the right skills for management. But the world needs more worker bees than managers!
Who do they think should do these jobs?

I used to work with a FTSE 100 CEO. He definitely had some undiagnosed neurodivergence. He had an incredibly deprived childhood and little formal education. His type of success is rare but shows what can be achieved.

writing people off for the reasons you’ve listed is wrong IMO and suggests people aren’t capable of growth and development.

I agree to an extent. But I also think that some of these issues can be overcome. I can only speak from my personal experience as someone who is ND, had no confidence in my early 20s and am still in somewhat insecure housing right now.
I started my career doing a minimum wage job. I had no ambition whatsoever untill.. a very kind person at work encouraged me to apply for a position of a trainer. Not a manger but someone who would take over inductions of new employees and over the course of a month get them up to speed with the ins and outs of the minimum wage job. I applied not really having any faith, and got accepted. This was a turning point of my life, really and thank you to that kind person from the bottom of my heart.
Five years later I thought to completely change industries and retrained doing an NVQ2 course couple of evenings a week. Qualified and got a first position in a swanky establishment who didn't treat the employees terribly well but gave me a bump in salary and a lot of experience. At the same time, I continued CPD and took a short training course in a very niche service not offered by hardly any people in my industry at the time. This, together with a a swanky establishment's name on my CV landed me a trainer job in another business with a massive pay bump. No management skills required.

Yes, someone has to do minimum wage jobs. They don't have to do them forever. It can be a good stepping stone. Not for everyone (as obviously, it can be much harder to mitigate LDs, institutional racism and such) but for some. And for others, it may be a lateral move to a different industry altogether rather than climbing a corporate ladder.

By the age of 37, I changed industries again. This time, having completed two degrees. All thanks to that confidence bump from the very first application for a slightly higher pay grade.

The system we have is that because it is possible for some people to overcome significant adversity and make it to the top, anyone could so therefore its personal defect if you dont make it and society can be mean about you and instead of making life dignified for the minimum wage worker we can berate them.

Theres no acknowledgement that we cant all be ceo and that its not possible for everyone to overcome adversity.

@HermioneWeasleyit’s not writing them off, it’s saying it’s ok if you can’t be that exceptional 1/100 person who overcomes all odds to succeed.

Agree - my partner has never been able to progress past a minimum wage job for a number of reasons you listed. I have seen him
try and lose so many opportunities over the years, but I genuinely think a combination of English being his second language, undiagnosed autism and pda and his poor communication style makes it very hard for him.

We need to stop talking about the career 'ladder' - it's not a ladder at all. Ladder suggests everyone can move up the rungs. It makes much more sense to call it a career 'pyramid' - the further up you go the fewer positions there are. Some people work hard their whole lives but for various reasons, just don't manage to get up to the next step.

The world needs more worker bees than managers I agree with you Delulu Going to university over pushed and for a lot of student s not leading to employment
There should be more money going into training people to work as carers plumbers and jobs created to improve the environment People who struggle to mix due to low confidence employed as Gardeners or litter clearing They don't look at what stops people working and how to get jobs that match the abilities of the individual People go into jobs and get bullied or can't easily cope with pressure but where is the needed support

Actually I think it’s unfair to act like everyone DOESN’T have that capability.

I worked my way up. It was flipping hard and I worked with/passed so many people on my way who were content with where they are, and didn’t want to progress for various reasons (which is perfectly fine and understandable!) but I think it’s insulting to them to assume they didn’t because they were incapable of it. Mostly it’s a combination of lack of faith in themselves, or not wanting to put the substantial work in, or just their career not being the priority in their life.

A lot of it is pure luck. Right place right time. As a PP has said, they were encouraged by a colleague to apply for a position as trainer, so sometimes opportunity presents itself as a result of circumstance and the right people being in your corner.
i have seen interviews with CEO types who will say their success is all down to their hard work. Not denying they’ve worked very hard, but so do lots of other people who don’t reach those lofty heights, so it must have a lot to do with luck too.

Wealth and good health is more down to luck than people want to admit.

But nearly all positions which are high paid require a certain level of intellect. Otherwise a shedload of money and privilege.

^

The point isn’t that some people can rise. It’s that we need lots of people in minimum wage type jobs to make the system work. Not everyone can be on top salaries.

One man beating the 1 in a million odds does not detract from the OP’s statement which is true 99.9999% of the time.

This.

There is a huge amount of luck involved, and it is not the level playing field that we might like it to be.

Whether people are willing to acknowledge that or not.

But if everyone had your drive they couldn’t all get there coukd they? You progressed because, yes, you worked hard, but also because of luck. There’s always an element of luck. Not everyone can progress. It’s just a fact. And it’s not always the most talented or hardest working who get the breaks.

This. Luck.

I work with a consultant who is clearly neurodivergent, who had very rich parents who were renowned medical consultants and every piece of help available including every et of exams failed resat. Every time a consultant queried his capability it was slapped down by his parents and contacts. Starting out wealthy and having the science and medical obsessed neurodivergence is different to starting out with a family of undiagnosed neurodivergence, the ADHD type of neurodivergence in a school where your family are poorly thought of and you have to work 2 part time jobs from 13 alongside school to keep money going into the home while your parents drink or smoke it.

But the point is that there are a lot of positions between MW job and CEO. Not everyone can be a CEO, not everyone can earn shed load of money but people can certainly earn more than a minimum wage in a lot of cases.
My massage therapist is not the most intellectual person but she charges me £60 an hour which, even after taxes and outgoings, makes her more than minimum wage per hour. A plumber in London charges upward of £90 for a diagnostic callout. There are skilled jobs which don't require vast academic skills. Yes, they do require training but we still have FE colleges for now.

But someone has to do the jobs we have decided should be minimum wage, don’t they? And they are often difficult - carers for example.

The barriers that some people face are bigger than most of us could ever even imagine. For some people, even managing to get and keep a job on minimum wage is a major achievement.

Plumbers and massage therapists are not going to become “well off” per the OP. The phrase “well off” indicates to me top 5% of earners.

We can't all earn loads but there is nothing to stop somebody improving their English and children grow up pretty quickly so that isn't a reason for a lifetime of not trying to earn more. There are a lot more min wage workers needed than there are high flyers.

Yes, someone has to. But any one individual person doesn't have to do it for the rest of their lives. The nature of the MW jobs is such that it's typically not hard to find people to fill the positions unless the working conditions are horrific (and they aren't great for a lot of carers which is more of an issue than pay).

@DeluluTaylor , absolute tosh. People with all those difficulties and a myriad of others have gone on to become extraordinarily successful. Excuses, excuses, excuses. 🙄