Can we stop acting like everyone has an equal capability to become well off?

[DeluluTaylor]

Based on the pension thread but not about OP. All this ‘why do people spend their whole lives on MW’ is so woefully ignorant. Some people don’t have a choice.
Neurodiversity
confidence
childcare availability
institutional racism
learning disabilities
trauma and it’s impact
Lifelong insecure housing
Being able to speak English but not write it
So many, many reasons why it is difficult to climb up the ladder. I’ve never been able to as I don’t have the right skills for management. But the world needs more worker bees than managers!
Who do they think should do these jobs?

Yes, but fortunately there are always more people. The idea used to be that people start in lower paid jobs and work their way up from there, being replaced by other people who were starting.

TBH I think the problem is minimum wage. There are now a shed load of jobs that used to be be or two rungs further up the ladder (dispensing in a pharmacy for example) which require a lot of training and responsibility but are now minimum wage.

She is referring another thread where the question was why someone spends their entire life working a MW job. And she asks that in the body of her post.
On another note, my friend who is a plumber is quite comfortable. I know that close to six figures income after tax is considered peanuts on Mumsnet but it feels quite well off to me.

Not all those reasons prevent people but having learning disabilities, even fairly mild ones are a major hindrance in my personal experience, that said with support the people I know live good lives

If you honestly believe that these things are just excuses, and that there aren't real barriers that genuinely prevent people from improving their situations, then I can only presume that you must live in a bubble surrounded by other people who are broadly similar to you, and that you must be blissfully unaware of the challenges that some people face.

I get it, it's easy to live in your own bubble. That isn't necessarily your fault, but perhaps you could look into volunteering opportunities of some sort to get a better understanding.

Yes but the point is these minimum wage jobs shouldn’t be careers for life, ideally they’d be used as either stepping stones to progress up the chain within an industry or as a means to have money coming in while you work on something else around it (education, training, starting your own business etc). The problems come when you have kids in a minimum wage job as I’d imagine it’s near impossible to find the extra time to do something else around it to try and improve your situation and so you get stuck.

I was a carer in a nursing home for 4 years while I studied and then was able to move on, my replacement was 4 years younger than me and had the same plan; look at it like a conveyor belt of workers.

There is a real lifestyle creep. I know people earning 6 figures aren't eligible for childcare help but they tend to naturally choose more expensive homes, cars, private school fees and so on that they weren't forced to do. Again being a single parent and receiving no child maintenance is another exception, but that's not everybody's situation.

And that's great for those who can move up and on. Many of us will have done that. But surely you are capable of understanding that some people won't be able to do that?

Perhaps it is easy to forget that not everyone is bright enough to progress beyond a certain level. Being of below average intelligence is not a character flaw.

I agree. People are so ignorant to the struggles some people face. Yes, some people overcome barriers but that's not based on hard work alone, it will also include luck and abilities or traits they were born with and/or developed in childhood. I think some people who do well just don't want to admit that they had advantages that not everyone else had.

Exactly!

You're not going to get far without being smart and hard working. That's true. Unless you're rich and connected. So if you're thick and lazy but your dad is a titan of industy or related to nobility or has other connections you should be OK.

I'm a partner in a professional services firm. We promote social mobility. We have partners from diverse backgrounds some of whom didn't get a degree. They are all very intelligent and worked their asses off. My colleague spoke recently at an event about how she came from a poor working class background and has worked hard to get to the top at a young age.

Some people aren't intelligent or have other issues And don't have connections so they end up in less good jobs. It's not right grinding people down and telling them they'll never amount to anything as some people buck that trend maybe by a social media career, footballing, the armed forces etc. There are often ways to rise above but it needs luck, talent, grit etc.

In my view, it is all about luck. I trained as a teacher in my 20’s, taught and burnt out within 15 years. Worked as a TA, decided the pay was unbelievably poor for the work required. By the time I decided I wanted to earn more, I hit menopause. Symptoms crippled me, but I battled on. Then cancer hit me; an urgent hysterectomy was needed. I will recover and continue my quest to find a better job I told myself. I recovered, cancer hit again, I was treated, this time battered and grateful for my lovely TA role. Cancer hit me again and it’s incurable. I’m currently applying for IHR. Claiming ESA and PIP, I’m finished, aged 54.

I'm sorry, @Enigma54, that sounds very unfair. You're right that there is a lot of luck involved.

It’s all about luck….right place, right time with the right attributes. What is luck? Why are some of us born into rich countries where we can access free education, medical care and somewhere safe to live? Other people are born into poverty on the streets or slums. Nothing makes sense. We all get a chance at life though and need to make the best of whatever hand we are dealt.

There is a huge amount of luck involved, and it is not the level playing field that we might like it to be.
Whether people are willing to acknowledge that or not.

It makes people uncomfortable to acknowledge that it’s not a level playing field.

I think effort is a big part of it too - my H doesn’t have degree and is61 but does have huge knowledge in a very niche market partly as he’s a nerd in that subject - however at one point he was working a 10 to 6 job and 3 evenings on his side hustle - that turned into a £90k a year job - it still involves doing stuff in evenings as well as in the day , answering emails and calls on holiday , a lot of driving up to London every 10 days it so - basically not a 9 to 5 job, no paid overtime, no paid holidays - some people just aren’t prepared to take those kind of risks

Absolutely, it does.

It is uncomfortable tbh because most of us quite like the concept of fairness. In theory.

And it's much easier to enjoy our own good fortune if we can persuade ourselves that it's entirely down to our own hard work.

To get a pension you have to pay into it. It doesn't miraculously appear

Hopefully you understand that or you're going to be very poor when you're older

Yes, it comes up a lot on here. Being on NMW is not a failing. A job is a job. I have only ever done NMW jobs, and years ago it was enough for me to live alone on. That is impossible now, with the cost of everything continuously going up, and wages not so much. People say if you want a better standard of living then aim higher... but not everyone can, and we are at a point where someone has to aim higher to be able to afford to actually live on the basics.

I have had a couple of people have a go at me on here about not being promoted etc. You don't get promoted in the NHS, especially at the bottom bands. You apply for roles when they come up, and one never came up whilst I was there, and neither would I have wanted to do it anyway (supervisor). A few pence extra for a lot more stress.

I do get where you are coming from OP. For some people it won't matter what happens they will work minimum pay jobs all their life and I am in no way minimising those jobs. They are essential, important jobs. EG. Cleaners, health care assistants, porters in hospitals, if people didn't do those jobs the whole of the NHS would quickly fall apart, surgeons/consultants couldn't do their jobs without them .
But what I really dislike on here is when people in big cities where CoL will be astronomical for min.wage, are told to get a better paid job then! Someone needs to be doing those jobs in that city and they need to live with a practical distance to their job. That city would be up shit creek if all those on minimum wage got better paid jobs/moved to a cheaper area!!
Attitudes to minimum wage/low paid jobs on here are very condescending at times !

neither would I have wanted to do it anyway (supervisor). A few pence extra for a lot more stress.

Thays the argument that is given, yes. And that’s also why some people don’t progress.

I get that some people can’t. I get that some people don’t want to. But there also often seems to be the argument that people want to but not if it involved being a people manager, or extra hours… etc

Indeed. But some people think they should just all get a better job, or like Michael Gove, everyone should be above average 🙄

I am not sure how you could be a supervisor without managing people. I know I could not do that. Not an argument for or against progressing. You kind of make it sound like people make excuses. Some people know their limits.
And there will also be way more people that need supervising, than can be supervisors.

The answer that you are looking for is that we need a more equal society where there is not quite such a difference between minimum wage and the very top salaries. The trouble is that the very wealthiest are rapaciously greedy and are always trying to find ways to empty our pockets while lining theirs.

I think the more pertinent question is when these things are decided, by whom, and why.