Can we stop acting like everyone has an equal capability to become well off?

[DeluluTaylor]

Based on the pension thread but not about OP. All this ‘why do people spend their whole lives on MW’ is so woefully ignorant. Some people don’t have a choice.
Neurodiversity
confidence
childcare availability
institutional racism
learning disabilities
trauma and it’s impact
Lifelong insecure housing
Being able to speak English but not write it
So many, many reasons why it is difficult to climb up the ladder. I’ve never been able to as I don’t have the right skills for management. But the world needs more worker bees than managers!
Who do they think should do these jobs?

Agree. I hate it when you hear people dismiss their good luck - heard two comments recently along the lines of 'the harder I work, the luckier I get' and 'my good luck feels a lot like hard work'. I don't dispute these people work hard but equally there are lots of people who work just as hard who won't ever achieve their kind of money so there is an element of luck to it. Me and DH are high earners and yes we work hard and always have but equally we were lucky to get an education (just your average state schools but not everyone is lucky enough to have that accessible to them or have parents that prioritise taking them/doing their homework with them when little etc), we were lucky to be able to have the health and means to attend uni, we are lucky we have the health to work full time etc etc

I agree to some extent but your list seems to write people off.

My boss is a very eminent and extremely well
paid lawyer. She has ADHD and if I’m perfectly honest, it’s very obvious.

So neurodiversity isn’t the death knell you appear to suggest.

I really think you have some good points but when you being children into it it's diluted.

Children are a choice, disability is not.

Ah yes, because all neurodivergence is the same and every person with it will hold the exact same skill sets as him.

I used to work with a FTSE 100 CEO. He definitely had some undiagnosed neurodivergence.

I'm convinced that a huge number of extremely successful people are all neurodivergent. When used correctly, the hyperfocus and simultaneous processing of ADHD/ASD is what actually propels people to the top of their field. It's also what gives many individuals extreme talent in areas like music, art, sport that NT people can find hard to compete with. So in many ways, ND is a huge advantage when used correctly.

The magic formula seems to be a neurodivergent person with a splinter skill or talent that is born into privilege so they can spend all their time pursuing their interests. Best example would be Taylor Swift who is widely believed to be autistic but her wealthy parents did everything to support her career and it paid off in the end.

And there is a pyramid shape in any profession with fewer of the better paying roles as you rise up the pyramid. Not everyone qualified, hard working etc is going to get near, or to the top.

It’s the only way rich people with a shred of empathy can look at themselves in the mirror…..

There are many other barriers too.
Location - opportunities in a small rural town can't compare with a city and there are multiple reasons why people don't move
Energy levels - some people tire more easily or have limited capacity for stress
Comfort level - some people are comfortable with where they are they mightnt like the money but they are good at their job and respected for it. Often there is a strong camaraderie st their level that wouldn't exist if they progress.

Timing and the economy is the biggest one. I worked in a big company that expanded very rapidly then stagnated, eventually cutting back and making people redundant. Those at the peak time got promoted rapidly, sometimes 2 or 3 promotions in a year. There were senior managers in their early 30s. The next cohort didn't move at all, 10 years in and maybe 1 person moved up. They were just as ambitious and capable but that industry had a boom time and they missed it by months.

Neurodivergence is just a different type of brain. It's like giving someone a brand new Mac or PC. Neurodivergent brains tend to have stronger processing skills so the hard drive is potentially more powerful, but what someone does with that computer is entirely unpredictable. The thoughts and behaviours that get built into a ND brain are like the programs you install onto a computer. Some people can have an incredibly powerful computer but do nothing aside from surf the internet or play few games. Other people can have the same computer and use it to mine bitcoins, render 3d animations or run an AI. It obviously doesn't mean every neurodivergent person has the same skills but they do start with same, blank hardware.

It's mostly luck. Even those who say they worked hard, more often than not got the right job, met the right person, was in the right place at the right time, etc. It doesn't mean you don't have to work at staying at that place, but early steps require a lot of luck. If it wasn't, even those saying they are extraordinarily successful from humble beginnings shouldn't find it difficult to get into the Elon Musk category...if only they worked hard enough. Luck and systemic challenges are real.

No not everyone can work for more than the NMW.

Sometimes it’s because of capability.

Sometimes it’s because of attitude.

If you are an employer with a gap for promotion, are you going to promote a reliable, adaptable, hard worker or someone who won’t answer the phone and needs more time off?

What we have at the moment is a society that makes living on low wages miserable. And a generation whose living standards as a whole will be lower than generations above. Not even equal, lower. A precarious job market, which means people can’t leave backbreaking jobs because there is no where to go. People want to work from home and get everything delivered. Then complain about public transport and variety of shops when they feel like venturing out once a year.

The older generations have created this society for the youngsters. It’s our fault.

And I agree with there being luck involved. H & I were talking yesterday about our teens and if all their hopes and dreams collapse H can train them up in his skills. Yes they are lucky in that respect, they have a dad who can help a lot. But that wasn’t by chance, we thought about what children we could have and what we needed to provide and do to help them.

So yes they are lucky but that’s because we thought things through. And continue to do so.

Well I do y know. There are well documented barriers to education and getting on in the works, and some good jobs aren’t well paid. A few get to the top. It suits people who have a lot of privilege you don’t to say that you could have done that yourself.

Like anything in life - a mix of things can all be true at once.

My siblings and myself all had an objectively grim upbringing and zero financial support. We’ve all have very different life outcomes - some incredibly successful- others definitely not. Some of this is undoubtedly just linked to age - older siblings benefitted from free degrees, available jobs, and access to mortgages pre property boom. Younger siblings have been locked out of all of that. However, I can also see that attitude and people skills have influenced our outcomes too - much more than intelligence.

Obviously - I’m writing this as someone with multiple degrees, a low income and a miniscule pension pot!

I also imagine there are many people who don’t manage to become plumbers. Lots of people are using plumbers as an example of a job anyone could do to become self sufficient.
But I couldn’t become a plumber as I have poor dexterity and poor concentration.
What I’m good at is talking to people. Which isn’t valued in our world at all. That’s why I’m in social care. If someone in a care home works really hard, they don’t become a nurse, or a care home owner! Many can’t become nurses as they lack maths skills or science skills. It’s not easy to get onto a nursing apprenticeship.

I agree! I just think the demographic of mums net is swayed to higher earners who struggle to see the other side.

Not everyone can move up, whether it be social circumstances, lack of opportunity, physical or cognitive reasons.

The vast majority of minimum wage jobs are front line services. The vast majority of public sector workers are on NMW or marginally higher. The vast majority of public sector workers have no scope or very minimal scope for progression.

Heres some examples:

Hospital ward: HCA’s - band 2/ 3 so minimum wage. Unless they do a nursing/HCP degree theres no scope for progression. If they all progress to being a nurse there won’t be enough jobs.

Typical staffing of a ward (day to day) 4 HCA’s, 3 Nurse, 1 sister, 1 Manager (again taking NMW out of it, also shows the lack of progression for the higher bands)

Care homes- 20 care staff, 3 senior carers, one care home manager

Schools- TA 2-3 per class (NMW), teacher x1 per class.

Admin staff- 10 admin staff, one senior admin, one manager

Retail- 20 shop floor staff, one team leader, one store manager

I’m sure there are plenty more examples of how people can be stuck at minimum wage in an essential role forever as even if they want to progress often the opportunity isn’t there. Because the higher role reduces to one or two roles at that level, so then theres an element of luck in being ‘the best person’ and for the one person who does get it another 5 people didn’t. MN takes about this career ladder like it’s inevitable… but it isn’t.

Mega wealthy people like, for example, Elon Musk had a massive leg up from family. It’s exceptionally rare for working class kids with no familial wealth at all to become extremely wealthy. If they’re intellectual enough and supported to succeed educationally then at best they might make it in finance or similar, like Gary Stevenson. Becoming a multi millionaire or billionaire is unlikely for most but particularly poor kids.

I have encountered some people who simply don't want to improve their employment prospects, my sister is a prime example of this. She has always, from age 16 done low paid/low skilled jobs. She never ever wanted to retrain or do any further education. She always said that she couldn't afford to retrain and needed to work. When I pointed it out to her that people in a similar position to her had retrained etc she couldn't answer. She always used to moan about how hard up she was yet did nothing to improve her prospects when she could have done.

You might find this interesting. Wealth and the power that often accompanied it changes the brain. Real empathy is in short supply among the super rich.

No, the OP is absolutely correct and it’s evidenced by the fact that the top positions in companies and government across the Western world are held by an overwhelmingly similar group of people from the same demographic- white men from upper to middle class backgrounds.

Yes there are exceptions, the system needs to have exceptions for it to be accepted by the general population- so they can sell the idea that if you just work hard enough, pull up your bootstraps enough you too can make it.

And therefore if you don’t ‘make it’ it’s your fault - you didn’t work hard enough, you just need to try harder, not question the structure or set up of the system itself.

100%. I worked part time in Greggs when I was at uni and it was quite easily the most miserable time of my life. Think I stuck it out for like ten months, had a particularly awful shift one day where everything went wrong and everyone was rude so I just never returned.

Anyway, I worked with someone who I went to school with, she was in the year above and had worked there since she finished school so about 4/5 years by that point. Decided to be nosey and look her up on FB a couple of years ago, she’s still working there!

Some people are genuinely comfortable working in low paid roles. I guess because it’s easy for them, they don’t have to think too hard, they’re not academically bright, doing college courses would be too much effort etc.

I agree OP. I also think people keep quiet or don't even acknowledge the leg ups or sheer good luck they've had in life and prefer to put it down to pure hard work or talent.
I celebrate my own successes and try not to get waylaid into comparison - a skill I've developed with maturity. I'm ND and on paper I'm not as successful as my friends but I give myself a pat on the back for my small wins because I've had lack of confidence, trauma and anxiety to contend with on the way so I am pretty proud of where I am even though its really not at all impressive to anyone looking in. I also acknowledge I've had alot of support from my DH and his family which has helped enormously. They have been my lucky leg up in life. My own family are a shit show! 😕

Can we stop acting like there’s no point in aiming high?

You are right in many of your posts . But you know what ? The world is changing... AI can do many of the jobs now once though of as only for very intelligent or skilled people. One thing it's not going to do is the true human element- talking to people. I'm frightened for our youth as I see first hand how office jobs in my line of work get replaced by AI. Your skills are going to be very valuable indeed...

A lot of it comes down to confidence. And this is instilled at a young age. If you grow up on a sink estate with a parent who doesn't work and belittles you every day, then you'll really struggle to overcome this.

People who grow up privileged in a stable home haven't a clue.