Can we stop acting like everyone has an equal capability to become well off?

[DeluluTaylor]

Based on the pension thread but not about OP. All this ‘why do people spend their whole lives on MW’ is so woefully ignorant. Some people don’t have a choice.
Neurodiversity
confidence
childcare availability
institutional racism
learning disabilities
trauma and it’s impact
Lifelong insecure housing
Being able to speak English but not write it
So many, many reasons why it is difficult to climb up the ladder. I’ve never been able to as I don’t have the right skills for management. But the world needs more worker bees than managers!
Who do they think should do these jobs?

You know it's funny, when the minimum wage jobs don't have enough staff, it's the people who like to berate those positions the most who seem to whine the most that their coffee took too long or their waiter didn't have time to flatter their ego, there was a long queue at the checkout or they can't get a bed for Auntie Dementia and are having to go and collect her from the police station because she's been wandering around in her underwear again.......

Crack on and do it yourself then if you have a low opinion of MW workers - rather hypocritical to use their services while thinking they shouldn't be doing it isn't it? Not to mention short sighted about the impact on their lives should these services decrease or cease all together.

Regardless of who can or can't do whatever - the MW jobs by and large are necessary and well used. People just want an excuse to bash someone else, that's all it is, they want the services but they don't want to think too deeply about how they're available and if maybe, they're contributing towards a bit of exploitation by using them - knowing they are poorly paid.

Also, not everyone wants a high-flying career at the expense of everything else. Not for me, thanks.

Some of the examples used sort of prove my point. ‘My husband did 3 jobs’ well number one he was a man, number 2 he wasn’t a single parent to 2 kids, number 3 he had managed to get 3 jobs in the first place’.
In the vast majority of NMW jobs I’ve done, the only way to get a pay raise is to become a supervisor or an assistant manager. Even when I was a band 4 nhs admin, the only way to go from band 3 to band 4 was to offer management supervision to band 3s. This is a highly skilled task, pulling people up on lateness or sickness, talking to people about their well-being/ workload. It’s not receptionists gassing with each other.
My autistic friend is highly intelligent but works in a supermarket. She needs days where she doesn’t have to talk to people when her MH and anxiety levels are high, so she just puts her headphones on and gets through her shift that way. Unfortunately this would not be an option if she was a supervisor. The amount of MN who expect everyone to understand and adapt to their ND children are going to have a shock when they enter the world of employment. Yes they will have to make phone calls, yes it will be very loud and chaotic and yes they will get stuck in MW unless they somehow forget they’re autistic and become comfortable managing thirty employees.
Another friend grew up in care, she tried to go to uni but was paying for a flat on her own, couldn’t share housing due to trauma (and if you don’t understand why you’re lucky) and ended up trying to work night shifts whilst studying in the day. No parental support, no LA support as she was over 25, burnt out, kicked off the course, now works MW jobs.
People who are lone parents particularly struggle as there is an expectation you will ‘prove yourself’ to get a better job but how can you work longer hours and have more of a presence in the office if you are the only one responsible for every drop off, pick up, sick day, inset day, holiday. Some parents have absolutely no support.
The underlying fact is that people on MW used to be able to get social housing or even buy. They used to be able to get by without UC top ups and there were grants for their DCs to go to university. Now none of this is available, but there is no way that it is any easier to progress than it was in 1955.

You have listed a group of excuses not reasons. Stop making excuses.

@Marchitectmummyso please explain to me how someone can overcome these things to get a hugely successful stellar career? Particularly disabilities, I’m curious about that one.

I hate this idea that everyone has to "work our way up". Someone has to be on the lowest wage!

But there is also an attitude of tall poppy syndrome amongst some famiies who have chip's on their shoulders about children not getting above their station

children should be taught it is up to them the direction they want to go when they are older and it up to parents to support them to do that, if a child wants to go to a top uni and they want to put the work in have the support around them they can achieve that

if people around them have a negative attutude it will rub off to them, the constant whining of how hard done by people are and there is no point putting any effort in does more harm

@PollyBellbut said child may not be able to go to a top university due to the cost these days. Do you know how many Uni’s charge accommodation above the loan amount? So if the maintenance loan does not even cover the accommodation cost, how are low earning families supposed to inspire their children? It is not a possibility for all. Not to mention families being hit with the bedroom tax as soon as their child moves out to live in halls? Not to mention the imposter syndrome many WC kids are plagued with when they go to university from deprived backgrounds? Not to mention the racism many of them face when they go to uni’s outside of London and get questioned about their hair care, skin care, food, routine, culture etc.

@DeluluTaylor But nearly all positions which are high paid require a certain level of intellect

Not necessarily. I had a large plumbing job. The plumber who came seemed a nice guy, but from our conversations, it was safe to say he wasn’t joining Mensa anytime soon. I paid that guy a truck tonne for the work.

Also knew a guy who retired mid-40’s, can very confidently say had low intellect, he worked FIFO on oil rigs and earnt a fortune. Doing what I have no idea, I wouldn’t have put him in charge of a goldfish frankly, but he must have been able to do whatever the job was. He lasted less than a decade post retirement, as his understanding was that the definition of retirement was drinking all day (note, he didn’t drink when on the oil rigs as they were alcohol free, and he was there for months at a time).

Also know someone in friendship circle who basically failed high school, no levels. Obviously has formal learning disabilities so school and formal education was not his thing, however I would say he has high intellect, and he has done really well by positioning himself in a very niche trade, where he is flown around the world for his skills.

It does not pay to write people off earning decent money due to ‘intellect’, educational qualifications or neurodiversity. I have one child with ND, anxiety, and in fact most letters of the alphabet. They could have qualified to not work but that’s not on. By identifying what they could do and working towards that it was a case of putting a round peg in a round hole. Not being able to work would have been due to trying to ram a round peg in a square hole. So, they have good qualifications, a great job/career/money, yet if you made them work at Tesco checkout they would likely have a meltdown within an hour and be sacked within a day. It’s about finding the right thing for people, not throwing hands in the air and writing people off.

An average child in private school out earns a brilliant child from state school. Imo this is due to nepotism, self worth, aspiration and communication skills.

However, just because someone didn't go to private school or has any of the issues you listed @DeluluTaylor anyone can still learn and grow. We are all responsible for growing ourselves. So, anyone can do well. It might not be 100% a choice, but it invariably is.

I agree we need more worker bees than Queens. One day jobs will be valued on their contribution to society versus keeping costs low so corporates can fund shareholders.

@HoppingPavlovaits not writing people off, it’s understanding the barriers. Someone like your child can have a barrier such as neurodivergence or MH, but they may have other privileges which makes financial success (because that is what we’re measuring here) possible. So one might be financially secure parents who can allow them not to work at Tesco whilst they find their niche. Good for them but that is a privilege. A family on the breadline who have lost UC for that child when they left education might not have that chance and would have to go to Tesco, a care home or working in a pub, which would probably lead to burn out or a reduction in self esteem. If you have more than one barrier, things are infinitely harder. For example, a young woman with learning disabilities who has a child, I would guarantee it would be almost impossible for her to become a millionaire.

The world is not, and never will be egalitarian, despite what some on MN would wish for.

Take the UK - Labour can attempt to social engineer all they like - the brightest and best will continue to leave, or cut their exposure to their tax liability etc.

You're not quite getting it though, are you?

"I have one child with ND, anxiety, and in fact most letters of the alphabet. They could have qualified to not work but that’s not on. By identifying what they could do and working towards that it was a case of putting a round peg in a round hole. Not being able to work would have been due to trying to ram a round peg in a square hole. So, they have good qualifications, a great job/career/money..."

I have a DD with many letters of the alphabet. She can barely read or write. She is unable to be left alone at home or leave the house unattended. She is impulsive and has mental health challenges. She can talk the talk but her understanding lags. Which job are you going to give her so she has a great job/career/money?

. I’ve never been able to as I don’t have the right skills for management. But the world needs more worker bees than managers!
Who do they think should do these jobs?

I agree with you to a degree. Not everyone has the abilities & skills to become a top lawyer earning loads. But i think the vast majority of adults have the capability to rise (during a 30 year working life) beyond minimum wage roles and become more comfortably off/not be living hand to mouth, reliant on benefits etc.

Of course there are lots of minimum wage roles and most people will be on these in their youth. But after 15/20 years experience i believe most people should have become more productive & worth more.

"Lack of childcare" really isn't an excuse, apart from a brief period when children are very young (under 1) when the costs can be really prohibitive.

I think this runs counter to OP's argument but is valid in lots of cases. Working a MW job can often be easier than working jobs that are better paid but have much more responsibility. I, like lots of people, have worked both types of job and found the former infinitely easier.

I found jobs with more responsibility far more stressful and difficult to manage from a mental health perspective. I wasn't able to to leave my work at work and took a lot of the stress home with me. I also had to work far more hours often unpaid and travel far away from home with lots of overnight stays. This simply didn't happen when I worked a MW job. Managing people can be really difficult which generally MW employees aren't expected to do and ultimately when I worked in MW jobs I could escalate anything that was difficult or complex to my boss. It was different when I was the boss and expected to fix all this stuff. The skillset and workload was objectively much more involved.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with choosing a life that involves less responsibility, less stress and a better work:life balance. Someone has to do the MW roles too. It's also though not accurate to pretend that everyone is barred from doing the better paid roles due to structural disadvantages or other factors. For some, it is a choice in the same way that some choose to live a life on benefits. They weigh up the advantages and disadvantages and choose the lifestyle they prefer on balance. We all have different values and preferences and these are shaped by all sorts of things including our backgrounds, abilities and personalities. I find anyone that suggests that nobody would actively choose a NW job or to live on benefits is incredibly ignorant. They are usually simply unable to comprehend that other people have completely different values and priorities to them.

Childcare you often see on here as a reason, but I lived 250 miles away from any family, my ex went to work overseas, and I had a very serious chronic illness. Yes it cost a lot, but I paid for breakfast and afterschool club, and holiday club. Since Covid many parents don’t want to pay childcare and you often hear women say it would take all their salary, like it’s just their cost to bear. Yes its costly, but whilst you continue working, you’re paying into your pension and your chances for future promotion are greater.

I do agree that not everyone can earn mega bucks, but I wonder if those on min wage have tried moving on? Have they gone for multiple other jobs? As a lot of success in life is down to putting yourself out there a bit. Applying for jobs etc.

@Peridoteagehave you worked in retail or catering? They don’t offer 9-5 shifts. It’s usually 7-3 or 10-6. I don’t know many nurseries which offer these hours, factoring in travel time. So if you’re only qualified to do these sort of jobs, or you live somewhere where these are the only industries hiring, what are you supposed to do about childcare?

@Zanatdyagain you’re talking about office jobs. The vast majority of MW jobs are not office based. We’re talking shops, care homes, pubs, restaurants, factories, call centres, cleaning, portering…

This is a highly skilled task, pulling people up on lateness or sickness, talking to people about their well-being/ workload.

None of this is 'highly skilled', it's literally having a conversation. Could it be that they're things you personally wouldn't feel comfortable doing, so you've written progression off?

Managing or supervising people isn't the only way to be successful or progress your career. One of the wealthiest people I know fixes lifts.

I think there definitely are barriers for some people, and not everyone will be capable of doing more than a minimum wage job. But I also think that there are people who would be capable of more if they wouldn’t write themselves off.

@Lougle I have a DD with many letters of the alphabet. She can barely read or write. She is unable to be left alone at home or leave the house unattended. She is impulsive and has mental health challenges. She can talk the talk but her understanding lags. Which job are you going to give her so she has a great job/career/money?

Yes, obviously there is a small cohort of people who can genuinely never work, let alone earn decent money. And I do get it. My friend has a (adult) child who can’t read/write, talk in sentences, or coherently, is not toilet trained, wears special clothes so they can’t paint with their poo etc. This is absolutely not the cohort OP is referring to. These are people who, with correct scaffolding or situations, absolutely can work yet don’t/won’t due to lack of support or will.

Just look at other threads here, there is one about a 22yo who claims they can’t for no real reasons, being paid not to work except it’s likely easier to play computer games all day citing anxiety and they didn’t ask to be born so why should they work. This is who is being referenced, along with others OP themselves classes as ‘low intellect’. However, jobs, and good paying ones at that DO exist for such cohorts of people. Of course, there are groups that lie outside of the parameters OP has listed, who can never work, and we should certainly support them as a society.

@Bargepole45but this again comes down to privilege and lifestyle/ social stressors. Someone with an ok home life, some sort of security be that having a secure home, partner, supportive family is much more likely to be able to cope with the added stress of being a supervisor or manager, for a few pence more per hour, compared to others. So take my example of Caffè Nero, a barista there may choice to be an assistant manager which means being in charge, having more responsibilities, being on call sometimes when people don’t show up, writing the rota. In time they may become a shop manager on a whopping £14 an hour.
But if that barista is a single parent, lives in a noisy temporary accommodation flat, has a child with special needs, no support network they are much less likely to be able to take on the added stress of being a supervisor, even if there is the longer term chance to become a manager. So the job will likely to the person with less social stressors and privilege prevails.

I’ve even been told at job interviews ‘it sounds like you have a lot going on’ which means your life is complicated and we don’t think you’ll turn up. Despite my attendance being 100%. As a single parent you are automatically viewed as flakey.

“Others may predict, only I will decide.”

I agree. It’s social class, personal connections and/or luck. I’ve worked really hard but I work in a very competitive field and I’m lucky I was chosen.

@Kimuraits highly skilled to be a good supervisor. People skills are not universal. Some people could do it, some would rather eat their own vomit than confront people. I had to discuss strategies for escaping domestic abuse, how to cope with being the recipient of sexual harassment, pensions, mental health all in my role as a supervisor in an admin team. On £12.33 per hour.