Can we stop acting like everyone has an equal capability to become well off?

[DeluluTaylor]

Based on the pension thread but not about OP. All this ‘why do people spend their whole lives on MW’ is so woefully ignorant. Some people don’t have a choice.
Neurodiversity
confidence
childcare availability
institutional racism
learning disabilities
trauma and it’s impact
Lifelong insecure housing
Being able to speak English but not write it
So many, many reasons why it is difficult to climb up the ladder. I’ve never been able to as I don’t have the right skills for management. But the world needs more worker bees than managers!
Who do they think should do these jobs?

Yes, I hate the trope about making your own luck. I've worked hard and done pretty well. I could have done things differently and not done so well (or better), but I did it all from a stable family background, in the knowledge that I could always go "home" if things went horribly wrong, with decent mental and physical health etc etc. Maybe I did things to help myself but there's also a lot of pure luck there.

I agree. I know a lot of people who are from privileged backgrounds but don't seem to understand how that impacted them positively. For example, being privately educated, having parents who valued education, parents being able to provide work experience opportunities (whether directly or through contacts), parents being able to provide good advice on career options, being given money to help with house deposits, the list goes on.
I had none of those - neither of my parents finished high school, we didn't have money growing up. I have ended up doing well due to sheer grit and determination, but I am certainly the exception, not the norm. I am now in a position to provide my children with the opportunities I didn't have.
I am happy for the people I mentioned above, because you can't help the circumstances into which you are born, but every now and then I do feel a slight pang of envy that I didn't have those opportunities.

I'm not sure- think it comes down to the old "if you've met one autistic person you've met one autistic person" line. While I know that people don't like using the term "high functioning" or "mild", the term ND is now so broad as to become almost meaningless in as far as it gives any indication of what a person is likely to be able to cope with on a day to day basis. I used to work in the city and there were a LOT of autistic traders and fund managers. I have many friends who would likely now get a diagnosis but beyond a few quirks and a certain rigidity/ tendency to be a social hand grenade, they have been extremely successful.

So I guess I don't see ND as an indicator of likely success as the presentations vary so wildly. It can be helpful in certain industries, but usually only if combined with well above average intellect.

I'm not sure why some posters seem to think that acknowledging some people face additional barriers to success is "writing them off" and others think the barriers are just excuses for laziness. It's well documented that your life chances are highly influenced by the circumstances you are born into.

As another poster has pointed out the demographics of successful people are remarkably similar and it's not because straight, white men are genetically superior. People who have received a public school education are over represented in our top universities, politics, law, finance and the media. Some people will claim that their parents scrimped and sacrificed to pay for their education but this ignores the fact that their parents could pay for the essentials AND still have money to pay for private education. It's privilege blindness.

Meritocracy is a myth. A few lucky people may claw their way to wealth from poverty but most people who are wealthy are born into it or are halfway there from the beginning.

The literal answer is, no, people will never stop acting like there's a level playing field.
People who are wealthy and privileged often have a strong need to believe this is deserved because they are better than other people. This is not only because its feeds their ego, but also because if they like to think of themselves as just and decent, they need to deny any unfair advantage they will have taken over others and how others with less will have facilitated their success.
It also suits those who want to hoard privilege and resources for themselves. If we deny disadvantage then we don't have to take any action to address it. We can just leave things as they are, with the same people retaining the wealth and power down the generations.

The ability to choose sensibly what to do with money is a discipline that not everyone has. Look at the stories of lottery winners who squander their winnings and end up addicted to drugs / on the dole.

What we choose to do with the money we have is a huge factor. Some people value new houses / cars / new kitchens every ten years / yearly exotic holidays / hair extensions, nights out etc etc. Money will be eaten up very quickly in those circumstances.

I was given £20k in about 2013 (a privileged position, from inheritance, that not everyone has, I get that) and used it to buy a house. I worked full time in a low paying job for ten years and by the time I sold the house it had grown in value from 85k to 150k. I invested the profits from that house into a scheme I couldn’t touch for two years and made 8k. I invested another small inheritance into something that gives me income enough to allow me to work part time.

I drive old used cars, I wear old clothes, a holiday to me is a few days in Wales. My kitchen is from the 1970s. But I am rich in time and work / life balance.

Someone dealt the same hand as me could have easily blown through the above by buying for example a couple of cars, a holiday, a new-build house with a huge mortgage, or just by generally living above their means for ten years and racking up credit card debts.

What we prioritise is the biggest deciding factor. Some people don’t want to play the long game.

I think something else that contributes is the industry you choose to work in.

I have a string of qualifications including a degree and a postgraduate certificate, plus industry specific CPD but I will likely be on minimum wage until I retire.

I chose the animal care industry because it's my absolute passion, but there aren't many well paid roles in animal care unless you're a vet or in a veterinary/DEFRA/ government management type role, or "high up" in an animal charity.

Zoo keepers, grooming assistants, kennel workers, vet assistants, receptionists, admin and nurses, pet shop workers, dog wardens, rescue workers are all paid minimum wage or just above and all are very much needed to keep all the cogs turning.

Never once have I earned minimum wage and I used to work in entry level roles as a teenager so have certainly had exposure to low paid work. It’s just the case of choosing better employers who didn’t see the minimum wage as a target to hit.

I have met loads of people from disadvantaged backgrounds who became successful at work, it doesn’t have to be an absolute barrier as you insist. You sound very defeatist and “woe is me”.

I do think you have to lack some type of drive and ambition to be on minimum wage your entire life. Surely you would, at some point, master what you do day to day, to the extent you might get some sort of promotion. ie training new starters, being seen as a subject matter expert, without taking on full blown management responsibilities? Or at some point, decide to upskill and choose a more fitting field to enter? Many people pivot their careers and try something new. “Management” isn’t the only other option vs minimum wage work.

Also-most people don’t understand the concept of privilege.

I think excluding disabilities or caring for disabled relatives..... It's on you to take life into your hands and build something for yourself and make your own success.

This is partly true - but why divulge all your high stress personal things in an interview? That isn't going to help you. Focus on your strengths and why you are ready for the next challenge. Then make it work when you get it . If anyone acts like their outside of work challenges will spill over to their work no one will give you that chance . Get the job. Prove yourself then the flexibility comes. Above mentioned of natter between administration staff- if that's ALL they see... then that's all they see / you'll get

I don’t know where this assumption has come from, I work with plenty of people who are well paid with nothing remarkable to their name. No degrees, terribly insecure, not particularly intelligent or good at their job. Half the civil service falls under this, if not more of them.

All it takes to secure a well paid job is applying for it and passing an interview. So a CV made by AI and a week of interview prep. That’s it. You just have to convince someone you can do the job. The barrier to entry isn’t as high as the hill you’re choosing to die on.

Do good employers who pay above NMW have enough vacancies for everyone who wants to earn more to 'choose' them, then? Who knew. Perhaps a campaign is called for to inform all the carers, retail and hospitality workers on NMW that they should resign and move to the high paying employers that have vacancies for them all.
At the same time, we could inform them of all the industries that need more supervisors and trainers than they do staff, so that no one needs to stay at entry level if they'd like to earn more.
Your theory might work at an individual level for some. But common sense should tell you there's not enough better employers to go round, and we need more soldiers than generals, so rising through the ranks can't possibly be an option for everyone.

So you’re comparing minimum wage work to war and soldiers? You do realise that when you have to resort to extreme analogies as that, your argument is clearly weak and invalid.

Grow up.

If an employer hiring a minimum wage position can’t get any quality takers, they’ll simply raise the wage. Stop acting as if the world needs to bend to the whims of these shitty employers.

A lot is down to circumstances. Person A is born to well off parents with professional careers. They grow up in a pleasant environment with their own room, laptop for homework, hobbies etc. University is just expected (and paid for by mum and dad), person A doesn’t have to work to survive and so has time to study harder and network in the right clubs and societies. On graduation a position in one of their friend’s parent’s company becomes available. Person B is born to a low income family. Their dad clears off with another woman when they are small and their mum works long hours in a supermarket to support them. They live in a cramped house in a not so nice area and can’t afford the sports and hobbies that person A takes for granted. No one in person B’s family stayed on beyond compulsory school so it’s not role modelled and even if they do go to university they will have to work in dead end jobs to pay their rent, owe a fortune on graduation and possibly still end up on minimum wage, because realistically it’s not what you know it’s who and all the societies that person A belonged to would not accept person B socially, the better off look after their own. Sad but true. Person B is far more likely to live and eventually die in poverty than person A and it’s not through any wrongdoing. Person A meanwhile will sneer at person B and talk about hard work and being self made. It’s not inevitable but the hard fact is that inequality exists and massively advantages or disadvantages you depending on which side of the divide you fall.

It's mostly luck.

If I was a child now I would be diagnosed with ADHD and receive appropriate treatment and support, and my life may look very different. As it is I wasn't diagnosed until around 10 years ago when I was in my mid 30s. Despite being in the top sets for everything and identified as having potential to do very well, my behaviour and inability to cope meant I missed a lot of school, my parents threw me out at 16, and I was pregnant at 17 and trapped in an abusive relationship. Brought 2 DC up on my own with zero support for years when I eventually left. I did start to work my way up in the NHS and was doing well when I suffered burnout and numerous physical health problems. Some of the problems I have are no doubt caused by years of alcohol and, to a lesser extent, drug abuse, which was me trying to manage life/undiagnosed ADHD the only way I knew how at the time.

I'm now mid 40s and unemployed. When I'm able to get another job it's likely to be mine wage because I don't have the capacity for more now. That's not me writing myself off, I'm just being realistic.

But again, you are completely ignoring any form of lateral shift. Nobody has to progress in their own job, they can simply move sideways into an industry which is either relatively better paid or has better opportunity for progression overall.

In your example of working in a care home, one can move into NHS as an HCA or, better still, a rehab assistant. RAs are typically band 4 with zero managerial responsibilities. That's already above NMW.
Having gained some experience as RA, one could consider a degree in OT, PT or SaLT. Maths skills are not required for any of these roles. After graduating, you start on B5 which is a bump in salary. Realistic progression from B5 to B7 is about 2-3 years for an average grad (area-dependent). B7 is roughly double of NMW.

Talking to people is greatly valued in many professions, including the ones I mentioned above. But one could also study to become a counsellor. They could stop there which is already above NWM of, again, consider a progression to assistant psychologist and all the way through to clinical psychologist. Great opportunities for private work there as well which takes one well above NHS pay grades.

In your example of ASD friend struggling to work in a supermarket - there are quite a few options of non-customer facing roles in other industries. These range from anything like cleaning jobs (a lot paid better than NMW) all the way to cyber-security, game design etc.

My aunt was left a single mother with three young kids when she was working in retail. She signed up to a bookeeping course which allowed her to take on private contracts. Some years later she completed a degree in accounting and she's been working from home for close to 20 years now. My friend with severely disabled child did exactly the same thing.

Your friend who couldn't share accommodation due to trauma could have transferred to an OU course part time.

Some creative thinking goes a long way.

DH and I came from literally nothing in India. Our parents had next to nothing. Just instilled in with is a work ethic to you know what. Actually do well at school. To study maths and science, to actively seek knowledge and value education. None of this "grades don't matter, school isn't everything nonsense". We both studied well, met at work. Moved here and have built a good life for ourselves. Never claimed any benefits (even child benefit). After years of hard work and slog DH is in the 45p rate.

Our kids look up to us and how hard we've worked. Our kids did well at school, and actually have aspirations to go have exciting well paying careers.

They don't aspire to spend an entire working career (not just temporary) doing a NMW job and claiming top up benefits. I mean is that a legacy you want to live behind to your kids? All you did was NMW forever.

Even if you don't do well at school there's numerous practical careers and vocational qualifications that don't even require GCSEs.

To look at it from another angle…
(although I wholeheartedly agree with the OP - some people are not cut-out for management, or have not had a start in life that means they will get there)

vocational jobs such as nursing… many top CEOs couldn’t and wouldn’t last a day. We have to stop equating large wages with success and talent.

we need to create a society where people who have a vocational talent such as nursing or teaching earn a fair wage that lets them buy a home near their place of work, take a holiday every summer etc.

its about matching our skills to our job, not aspiring to all be a manager. I earn a good wage as a professional, never in a million years would I make a good nurse (but I would try)

@DrCoconut I think you’re massively overestimating the “network” universities provide. Job opportunities from your parents are a totally different thing as parents are more minded to support you, advocate for you and even pull strings. But you definitely don’t get that level of support from peers at universities or university tutors. Loads of graduates struggle to find jobs after university but by your logic, they would be perfectly fine because of their “network”.

People always come to these threads with anecdotal examples of exceptions like 'well I knew someone who xyz' or 'well my husband...'

It's a systemic issue. In fact it's not a flaw it's by design, you're right that society needs more worker bees than people who rise to the top. Anyone who doesn't think to is ignorant and imo prejudiced.

It's like the quote from Ratatouille! 'Not everyone can be a good cook, but a good cook can come from anywhere.' We need to have a few stories of people who have come from nothing and managed to make it big in order to perpetuate the myth that we live in a meritocracy. But just because a few people do doesn't mean anyone can.

Hard work, luck, family support and ability to take a risk play a huge part. Being able to take the risk of a new job in a new place can play a huge part in life chances.

My family were very poor, but a focus on getting the best education possible, staying with extended familyand friends get jobs not available locally all paid off generation after generation.

Oh they really don't. Having had to deal with many "higher ups over the years in the Health, education, Social services and the military i can assure you there is a fair sprinkling of them that are thick. Sometimes it comes down to who you know, how much you brown nose and what you have on your boss. The lack of intellect is outstanding.

Just find something you're good at and where your skills lie and work towards doing the best you can in that.

It’s just the case of choosing better employers who didn’t see the minimum wage as a target to hit.

I know right, all those incredibly stupid people choosing shit employers and complaining, they don't deserve anything above minimum wage. If only they just applied for the thousands of jobs that are conveniently located, offering hours that suit and pay more than minimum wage.

That's really as polite as I can manage in response to such an ill informed hot take.