My head is spinning. Am I in the wrong here or is he?!

[Whataa]

If I say to DP anything with the word ‘if’ in it, he says im threatening him.

Examples are, i’ll say ‘if we can’t organise the holiday asap then i will need to move the dates for work and we’ll have to cancel these suggested dates.’

the context is always dp dragging his feet with something and causing a knock on effect of stress in my life and for DS as nothing is organised. Is it threatening for me to say this in response?

Yes, presumably because he behaves in this way a lot.

Dont arrange your dates until he's arranged his. Just stop playing his game.

Within his family when trying to sort out issues without them escalating? 100% i would. The way couples express things to each when they're frustrated is so important.

Fair comment. But I do feel men hardly ever put any thought into how they express themselves during important discussions, which imo leaves women bearing a disproportionate responsibility for communicating in a way that stops things going off the rails. I think that’s probably why I tend to jib a little when I see women being counselled to communicate in a specific way.

Yeah I get what you are saying but time sensitivity doesn't change how people should speak to each other even if very frustrating.

Tell him his lack of action has consequences that you're worried about it. You need to lock in dates with work otherwise you won't be able to go together. You are going to crack on with the dates in 24 hours. IF he's unable to organize in that time HE will have to accept if he can't come. Remind him he's an adult. Lack of action is a decision HE is making. IF he feels overwhelmed or it's difficult for a reason tell you now. IF he doesn't pre-plan this affects the whole family.

Totally agree. Men are on the whole are worse at this and often say what they want with little consideration. Women then pick up the slack unfairly and tiptoe around them and its horrible to watch it play out. But I do think in a marriage (unlike say a work place, or wider family relationships) both need to bring gentleness in the way they discuss things and work through problems or it just spirals into more strife. The responsibility for that is equal, regardless of whether that equal responsibility is recognised or carried out in that particular couple.

No real criticism on OP here as she's working with a very frustrating sounding situation. My comment was aimed to help her consider (and just consider, beacuse i wasn't there and dont know how she came across) whether the way she raised things could be less confrontational by wording differently. It sounds like that might be the only 'wrong' she could be considered as committing (and is so easily done when someone is pushing your buttons). I'd have plenty more to point out to him if he were the one asking and didn't mean to come across as implying she ought to take up all the responsibility for their communication struggles when his own behaviour sounds infuriating.

So what are you threatening him with exactly? I think I’d say I’m giving you the facts, this will be the outcome, it’s not a threat it’s a likely outcome. If it goes on, I’d leave him, he sounds exhausting. Tell him this, also make it clear it’s not a threat, it’s a promise

I agree with above.

Also. It does sound as IF, as soon as you try to organise something he can derail the whole conversation by starting an argument about threats etc... leaving you so fed up that you walk off and don't book whatever it is.

I don't think changing your form of words is going to help. He will simply fault find with the way you are saying things again.

Its' just utter nonsense and he is condemning you to always be running around trying to put things in place at the last minute... Is he trying to save money? Just a very disorganised person? Doesn't want to go on holiday? Is just bad tempered and enjoys scuttling your plans. He sounds bloody impossible.

I think I would tell him... I'm booking the holiday for x dates. When you confirm your attendance and I will also book for you. The deadline is xyz.

But I think you might be booking the holiday on your own.

Why do you book your time off before agreeing dates with him? Sounds unnecessarily stressful and results in your making what he considers threats. Or why don't you just make the plans and let him know what they are if he has trouble committing and you have put your stake in the ground at work? Have you decided yet where to go/what to do, or is that a whole other debate?

I suspect he doesn't really care whether you have to change your (perhaps prematurely arranged) annual leave, yet doesn't want an earful about it before and after you have to do it, or be reminded ('nagged') about his failure to confirm.

When married I sometimes got into situations a bit like this, and looking back I think towards the end part of me perversely wanted to be able to blame him for things so I think there was a sense in which we played to one another's weaknesses. I've been divorced for a while now and absolutely relish not ever having to negotiate this kind of thing, which can raise hackles on both sides.

I was going to suggest saying any news on the annual leave front etc.

Think it would be best to ask him how he wants to be asked? What he would do the other way round? He's setting you up all the time. This would so wind me up. He's totally unreasonable and on the boundary of gaslighting.

NU to use ‘if’, in itself. But, now you know he finds it triggering, unnecessarily confrontational to continue using it.

‘if we can’t organise the holiday asap then i will need to move the dates for work and we’ll have to cancel these suggested dates.’*

Just rephrase what you want to say.

” have to confirm work holiday dates by xx. Should I change them?”

He sounds emotionally abusive and gaslighting you into feeling like you’re threatening him. It’s not a threat. At the end of the day him purposely dragging his heels in situations so much that it causes you a lot of stress then tries to twist it back on you to make you feel like you are the problem and that you are ‘threatening him’ is gaslighting. The fact that he doesn’t seem to care that it’s giving you stress and would rather claim you are threatening by trying to get HIM to make a decision he doesn’t seem to want to make himself shows what sort of an absolute twat he is. What do you actually see in this man and what benefit are you getting out of the relationship by staying with him?

Personally I could not stay with some snowflake who thinks saying the word ‘if’ is threatening. Tell him to grow up and get a grip!

He’s being passive aggressive, and instead of accepting the blame for his fuck up, he’s turning it back on you so he can be the victim.

Yup! Manipulative much. Designed to make op shut up and put up.

Agree with this - childish, manipulative, gaslighting, selfish, self centred, passive aggressive behaviour.
I’ve come across some passive aggressive, manipulative behaviour from people in my life but I’ve never heard anything like the op’s situation. It’s quite frankly pathetic behaviour from him.

Book for yourself and DS and go without him. He can catch up if he wants to. Sounds like you'll have a better time without him.

Really, so you would be dragging your feet and f**ing up the plans and if anyone tells of you natural consequences of that you “would not be responding well”??

are you having a laugh?

Just stop saying "if", and do the thing you're needing to say "if" about. So for example, DH hasn't given you dates for holiday. Don't tell him that if he doesn't soon, you'll go without him / pick dates that suit you and he'll have to work around it Just DO that.
Actions speak louder than words - he'll soon get organised.
When he asks why you didn't tell him, just say you're avoiding the "if" sentences like he asked.
He sounds irritatingly disorganised though.

Is he autistic with pathological demand avoidance? If there are techniques you can learn to support him.

He’s treating a boundary from you at his faffing around as a threat. I think that is worrying and very bad for you. You sound as though you’re being reasonable.
I once had an indecisive partner who was indecisive (because he evidently wanted someone else and left me) who used to accuse me of being as I was at work (teacher) because I explained my boundaries. Infuriating!

Why should op stop saying if? Her choice of language isn’t wrong. OP’s gaslighting OH twisting it back on her for his own fuckupery is the issue here. Even if op stopped saying the word if, he would use it against her no matter how she phrased things. Why should op pussyfoot about for her snowflake DH when he’s the one in the wrong! He’s just trying to shut op down for the stress he’s causing her and basically telling her to shut up and put up with his shit behaviour because he feels ‘threatened’.

I mean, I agree, if course she shouldn't have to stop saying "if". But following through and letting him suffer the consequence, rather than trying to remind him multiple times (which she shouldn't be having to do anyway) just takes away his argument completely, so there's nothing to gaslight about.
He will try and spin it onto her whatever happens so she may as well save herself an argument plus a load of back and forth stress, and go straight to the consequence.

As in, she books it and he either doesn't come as he hasn't booked the time off, or she books dates that suit her and he is the one left stressing about it, because he didn't tell her by the deadline she clearly communicated.