To emigrate knowing it will devastate my mum?

[tangotingo]

I’m breaking my heart over this as I know deep down I want to go but it will break my mum’s heart.

Been with my partner 4 years, we are engaged to be married next year. I’m pregnant with our first baby. I’m British, partner is from Eastern Europe and his family have settled all over the place (he has relatives in Canada, his home country, Germany and Scandinavia).

His younger sister lives in Germany and has lived there a few years now. She has a partner. They are settled in a lovely small town there which is very safe. They only work hospitality jobs there but have a lower cost of living - they live off one partner’s wage and save the rest. They are considering moving to Hamburg for more job opportunities. They are at a very similar age and life stage to us and are also expecting their first baby. There is a particular industry in Hamburg which is very big and similar to what my partner does for work in the UK, don’t want to go into more detail as it’s quite niche but we’ve seen that one particular large firm encourages foreigners to apply if they have a relevant skillset. I would struggle a bit more as my skills are administrative/customer service so I’d likely end up being a stay-at-home parent whilst learning German. My job in the UK is only a call centre role so it’s not like I’d be giving up a career, so I’m willing to do it so long as we can afford to live. Partner’s sister is confident you can live on one wage over there, and also says she knows a firm that is easy to get into without speaking German as she has helped friends from her own country get in there, so she says she could help us get in their initially if we wanted whilst we’re settling.

I feel, probably quite selfishly, that there is nothing for me in the UK. My parents had me in their 40s, I’m in my 20s now and they are in their 60s. They are full-time carers to my autistic brother who is 25 and they refuse to take any steps to prepare him for the fact that they won’t always be around. He is verbal but doesn’t work, he doesn’t even have a mobile phone as he refuses one and they just accept it. My dad is a hoarder and I hate visiting their home as it stresses me out. I have half-siblings on my dad’s who are 20 years older than me and don’t care about me despite my efforts to have a relationship (I’ve attempted to meet them on their birthdays etc to not even receive a text on mine).

I have dealt with so much anxiety over the years about how care for my parents and brother is likely to all fall on to me in the future as my parents age (my half siblings have no interest). I live an hour drive away as when I met my partner I moved to a different city to be with him. We can’t move to my parent’s city as my partner’s industry doesn’t exist there. I feel absolutely stifled by thoughts of the future. Due to my parents age and being carers they won’t be able to offer me any practical support with my baby. Since I moved an hour away 3 years they’ve visited me less than a handful of times.

Due to large age gaps with my siblings and the fact that my partner has no family in the UK, my child will have no cousins to grow up with except for kids my partner’s sister will have in Germany. I recently have been crying my eyes out as I’ve realised nobody in my family deserves to be godparents to my child, nobody gives a shit enough. We’ve already decided godparents will be partners sister and her partner.

Me and my partner are so lonely and desperate to be around people in a similar life stage. He was quite depressed his last birthday as it fell during a heatwave and he wanted to have a BBQ and realised there was just nobody to really invite so we didn’t bother. It’s getting to him now we’re having a child I think.

Our part of the UK is incredibly rough and our car was stolen a few months ago. I hate the UK rainy grey weather and get seasonal depression, I know Germany is hardly a hot country but the UK is particularly bad due to being an island and we’ve enjoyed many lovely summer BBQs and outdoor parties when visiting Germany previously. I’ve always said no to my partner when he’s suggested moving as I feel bad leaving my parents, but since becoming pregnant I’ve started to want to prioritise baby more and I feel they will be better off if we go to Germany. I only really want 1 child but feel pressure to have 2 if we stay in the UK as I feel the child will be lonely, but it’s different if they will have cousins which they will have in Germany. My, my partner, my partner’s sister and her partner will all be able to support each other.

We have the money to emigrate and get settled - £25,000 in savings. This was originally meant to be a house deposit in the UK but every time we’ve found a home we’ve had to pull out due to the house having major damp issues. Every house in our budget is awful and requires major renovation works. We’ve essentially given up.

I have decided I want to go, I know it won’t be easy to find a rental and jobs etc but I want to at least start the process even if it takes a couple of years. Due to my partner’s EU citizenship I can tag along with him to get residency. I think it’s best for me, my partner and the baby. But I know it will break my mums heart. Can anyone give any insight please? Just to add as well they won’t be able to visit me at all as they are poor, and my dad and brother refuse to travel and mum refuses to leave them.

Mum was worried when I first starting dating someone from another country and said from day 1 “please don’t emigrate.”

Am I a selfish cow?

Sorry I'm not sure what that has to do with the non-eu spouse thing.

Anyway, yes speaking German is essential. I remember us learning about the German school system and when I went there on an exchange our school was matched with a Gymnasium. I was quite surprised how early they are all split up.

I think you need to try a new life in Germany or you will regret it . My daughter and family live in Australia and although I miss them , I’ve adjusted as they have an amazing lifestyle there . We have visited them and would never ask them to give up their dream! Germany is so much nearer and you could visit your parents or they could visit you , airfairs are cheap in comparison .

There was really interesting, and topically relevant to this thread, article in yesterdays Sunday Times ( I had kept up with the thread until today, so apologies if a pp has mentioned), “Why Young Brits Are Moving to Germany”.

It sets out the legal requirements necessary to moving there.. including “ Employment visa” ( requiring a confirmed job offer with a German employer .. normally for skilled workers only earning €50,700 pa with a degree, or similar. “ Freeslance visa” valid for 3 years, for self employed workers who can demonstrate demand/economic interest in their product, service, and can support thematic es financially.

The Opportunity Card is a points-based visa providing a one-year stay for job-hunting. You must show work experience or have two years of vocational training, have competence in English or German and a monthly income of at least €1027. The Jobseeker Visa is similar, but requires a degree or recognised vocational training, an income of €947, but only permits a six-month stay.

The article also goes on to comment on German economy, taxes and healthcare…. And describes Hamburg as “ handsome, affluent and cultural “.

OP, I can imagine what you are going through, as I was in a similar position. My DS are now 19 and 17. When my oldest DS was 1, and I was pregnant, my DH was offered a transfer within his company to Berlin. He would have had to start when DS1 had just turned 2, and DS2 was 2months old. I looked into the differing neighbourhoods, got really excited and which one I thought we’d like the best, looked into mother-and-baby groups, language classes, and read up on ex-pats groups out there. Best in mind how social media has utterly transformed how we live since then. My DH basically said the decision lay with me ( I’m a lawyer and was on a career break, and at the time would be at home with the DS, whereas he would have work relationships already) and I’m really sad to say that the nerves kicked in, and we ended up staying in London.

I really regret it. I know you have additional complications now, Brexit, DP non-British, but, in line with some other pp, it’s sometimes better to regret doing something than not trying in the first place.

I wish you the very best of luck in whatever you decide. 😻

ps- apologies for typos 🙄!

In response to why brits were moving to Ireland in order to be able to move back to uk with their non eu spouse. They had to exercise freedom of movement in an eu state.

You don’t need to rush this.

You could: Look to move to a nicer area in the Uk. Tell your parents that you will not become your brother’s carer at any point. Take yourself out of the equation completely. Repeat on a loop if necessary. They might kick off. Let them. Don’t offer compromises or solutions. Bat the ball back firmly in their court.

You could also visit Germany more frequently, so partner has more time with family and friends.

Most of all, you should focus on moving further away from your parents, building friendships in your new nicer area, joining in local events.

Don’t bite off more than you can chew. The grass might seem greener in Germany. It’s not going anywhere. Don’t run away, be firm with your parents.

None of the advice urging caution is about snobbery - it's about common sense.

Hamburg is a very expensive city to live in. Groceries there cost more than in the UK. Rent in Hamburg will swallow up their modest savings in less than a year if neither has a job before they leave.

Money problems are a major cause of relationships breaking down.
A new baby is also a major cause of relationship's breaking down, particularly when a couple is not married. (Nearly half of all couples with children who are not married end up living apart compared to only 20% of those that are married).

Moving jobs is very stressful.

Moving country even more so, especially if neither has a job lined up before leaving...

In addition, neither of them speaks or writes German which will make their lives extremely difficult when they have to interact with German bureaucracy which is legendary. Add to that how unfriendly Germans are, especially to those who do not speak their language, and it's not hard to see how difficult their lives could very quickly become.

Fail to prepare and prepare to fail.

The sensible approach would be for both of them to start learning German now.
OP needs to have the baby in the UK to protect her own rights down the line should anything change in their relationship.

Both of them should have a job lined up before resigning from their current employment.

I would recommend doing the preparation work for the next 2.5 to 3 years and only heading to Germany when both of them have a job lined up. The husband could go first if it is easier for him to find work and OP could follow when he is permanent. That way their child would be ready to start Kindergarten and both of them could be working and not have to sacrifice their standard of living.
There are as many rough areas in Germany as in the UK and I say that as someone who lived and worked there for several years but crucially able to read and write in German.

Yes the surinder singh route I think it was called. It was a farce they had to come up with it in the first place.

I went to a pub at 9 pm with my 3 week old baby in London (granted I live in a leafy london suburb) and walked back at night, felt very safe. People here are so kind to you when you have a baby, i always have a seat on london public transport since I became pregnant and now with a 7 month old. It was actually a stark contrast to germany when we were visiting (lived there before, husband speaks fluent german), in crowded places, people would shove dh even when he had a tiny baby in a carrier. In the uk, even "cold unfriendly ' Londoners would not do this. I was much more appreciative of the uk when I came back.

Brilliant advice, thanks

This all sounds like a good idea.

Just one point on the cousin/aunt thing: I agree having a loving extended family is great.
But otoh it's important, when you're having children, to remember they are different people from you & so giving them what you didn't have and wanted as a child won't necessarily mean giving them what they want, as they may be different, possibly very different from how you were as a child.

Well, we’ve had a long video call (it lasted 7 hours!) with partner’s sister and her partner where we expressed that we have decided to move to them. Me and partner had already come to the choice that we 100% want to leave the UK (this was a certainty, and there was no doubt for either of us) and were expecting to go to Germany but were open to anywhere whether it was to be with his sister or not. The trajectory has now changed somewhat.

They informed us that they decided that given they are expecting a baby, they want to be able to work better jobs than the hospitality industry they are in currently, otherwise childcare will be impossible once she goes back to work. Their German is decent but not enough to get out of the hospitality industry if they stay there.

We all had a rather long discussion and they will be looking to re-locate to Malta. Partner’s sister is not applying due to pregnancy but there are many office/labour jobs that her partner is more than qualified to do, so he is applying and once he gets something they will be going there too. There’s loads of entry level jobs there (similar to the role I do now) which require only English language and previous customer service/admin experience. The rent there seems to be similar to the rate they’ve been paying in Germany. They also stated they think we’ll find it easier to settle in Malta (due to language being less of an issue) and encouraged us to look at coming too. Their English is fluent, and English is the working language in Malta particularly among our generation. We’ve had several self-catering holidays there (yes I know that’s not representative of living there) and found English was by far the most common language. People always wanted to chat to us on buses or in restaurants, so I don’t think I’d be as isolated as a mother with a baby than I would have been in Germany.

Therefore, me and DP have decided we are also Malta-bound next year once he finds a role. We expect he’ll find a job, long-term he wants to work at the docks over there but he would be happy to do any sort of labour job in the meantime. Childcare is free there, so once baby is old enough and I’m no longer receiving maternity pay from the UK (which will ended around June 2027) I’ll be in a position to look for work too.

I absolutely adore Malta as does DP. We’ll deffo only be able to afford to rent an apartment but I quite like this idea to be honest! It’s only a small country so not many have houses. I find apartments cosy and inviting. I understand the Summers get very hot but we’ll have air con I’m sure. Deffo not much greenery there but they do have a lovely unique landscape and outdoor spaces. I know Malta has issues in regards to traffic and overdevelopment, but overall we think it’ll be a safe and pleasant place to bring up DC. We’ll be continuing to grow our savings before we go.

We’re feeling very positive.

Our savings will be at least £30,000 before we go which is equivalent to 1 year of my UK salary. This is going to be helpful because once we go to Malta daily living costs will be fairly tight on one wage until I’m able to go back to work. With this amount of savings we’ll be able to get by and settle in until I am ready to access work.

So very quickly you’ve gone from thinking Germany is the place for you….to Malta?

After your update this all sounds pie in the sky to me.

Dh's sisters moved to israel without a plan. It totally drained their resources and robbed them of their ability to save. They have ended up living with their inlaws in their 30s with kids in tow. DH's sister is now sharing a house with in-laws including a brother in law who has been sectioned to the hospital whilst pregnant as their budget of 1500 euro rent is an insufficient budget for any apartment.. their premise for moving was they hated london and didnt want to live at home. Dh stayed in london (in the family home until 29 circa 2016 to 2019 ) , we now own a 2 bed flat and are the only one in the family living on our own in our 30s with our son.
It could be that in your attempt to get away from your parents, you, your husband and your child end up living with your parents because of a failed international relocation. I have difficult family too including a neurodivergent SIL but the trick to dealing with that is to be extremely conservative re finances/jobs and yes to buy a home. We bought a 400k flat which seemed massive in 2019 but now our mortgage is 1282 which is very good in london where average rents are more like 2500.

Yup. Moving to another country is far from an unreasonable thing to do - but this is a bit half baked to say the least….

The thing is due to eu freedom of movement, she can do it. I am non eu and when I was 22, I flew to germany to be with my dh who was studying there and married him and literally got issued an eu residence card 3 days later with full rights to work.

It was very tough financially but we were in our early 20s and only needed a studio flat and money for food/basics, it was also pre inflation. We also had help from an older family member re rental deposit and dh found a job. Still we struggled.

We did move back to london where dh is from v quickly. OP is in a totally different situation, she is pregnant and she wants to build a family. As a mum of a 7 month old (11 years on), I can tell you that the life i had with my rather spontaneous relocation is not a life that I can remotely conceive for my child. OP's life seems fine for a baby, she has a rental, she has savings for a house deposit, they both have jobs. It would be crazy to throw that away for an abrupt relocation. Most people who move like that dont have any dependents and are willing to start from scratch and potentially have years before babies are even a question.

OP, I don't mean this harshly, but it feels like you're just throwing darts at a map, or being pulled along in the slipstream of whatever your partner's sister decides.

It has to take more than one conversation to make such a big decision. You need to be thoroughly researching schools, jobs, housing, healthcare, cost of living, lifestyle, weather, politics there, SEN provision in case you ever need it and all of the practical steps and laws re emigration to wherever you're going.

Research official sources and also look on forums and online groups for first hand expat experiences. Don't trust all of this to your partners sister.

I wonder if she rang you tomorrow abd said they'd changed their mind, theyre moving to (insert country here) if you'd go off Malta and decide you too where moving there?

You need to make the best decision for you and your child. I get that living near your partners sister appeals, but that's all she is right now, not even a SIL. Even if she was your SIL, proximity to them shouldn't be enough to dictate where your family lives, it should a decision based on many practical factors and not just a tenuous relational link.

Agree with some PP. I get that sometimes you need to get away from a situation that isn't likely to get better for you. I get that there is an element of risk taking that can be inevitable, I also had to quit my job and move to a new area.

That being said you need to be wise and informed. The extended family thing is, at least I think, something worth taking a risk to try and achieve but I'd also really take time to consider if it's the right place. Is it somewhere you stand a good chance of building a decent life even if the family thing doesn't work out?

Yeah if I'm being honest I am finding this all really, really strange. You were waxing lyrical about Germany only a few days ago saying it was amazing and ideal and now just because your SIL has told you to move to Malta you're going there? Also, now it seems you think Germany would make you isolated but thats the opposite of what you said previously. You seem to have extremely polarised views whereby a country is either wonderful or perfect or horrible and awful. Malta is now the "perfect one" and Germany is therefore, bad.

Dont get me wrong- if you want to leave UK then you should. But why are you being so swayed by what your SIL is doing? this is exactly why people in the thread have said that you seem passive, because you are. You are literally basing your entire life on what your SIL is doing and it's really strange. I really hope this doesn't all go south for you because God forbid you get to Malta and your SIL changes her mind again and wants to move elsewhere, what then?

This is exactly why I suggested neurodivergence earlier in the thread. It screams from every one of the OP'S posts.

I don’t understand why if your partner is happy to do other work you don’t just move somewhere else in the UK? Which you could do right now. Half the stuff you moan about does not apply to other areas.

For many reasons you sound like you are extremely vulnerable and don’t realise it.

Do you have anyone in real life you could speak to at all, apart from your parents?

I think you should mention all of this to your midwife, who may be able to put you in touch with some support groups.

Yes, this. It feels like the halo & horn effect.

Yes, neurodivergence can lead to black & white thinking...