To emigrate knowing it will devastate my mum?

[tangotingo]

I’m breaking my heart over this as I know deep down I want to go but it will break my mum’s heart.

Been with my partner 4 years, we are engaged to be married next year. I’m pregnant with our first baby. I’m British, partner is from Eastern Europe and his family have settled all over the place (he has relatives in Canada, his home country, Germany and Scandinavia).

His younger sister lives in Germany and has lived there a few years now. She has a partner. They are settled in a lovely small town there which is very safe. They only work hospitality jobs there but have a lower cost of living - they live off one partner’s wage and save the rest. They are considering moving to Hamburg for more job opportunities. They are at a very similar age and life stage to us and are also expecting their first baby. There is a particular industry in Hamburg which is very big and similar to what my partner does for work in the UK, don’t want to go into more detail as it’s quite niche but we’ve seen that one particular large firm encourages foreigners to apply if they have a relevant skillset. I would struggle a bit more as my skills are administrative/customer service so I’d likely end up being a stay-at-home parent whilst learning German. My job in the UK is only a call centre role so it’s not like I’d be giving up a career, so I’m willing to do it so long as we can afford to live. Partner’s sister is confident you can live on one wage over there, and also says she knows a firm that is easy to get into without speaking German as she has helped friends from her own country get in there, so she says she could help us get in their initially if we wanted whilst we’re settling.

I feel, probably quite selfishly, that there is nothing for me in the UK. My parents had me in their 40s, I’m in my 20s now and they are in their 60s. They are full-time carers to my autistic brother who is 25 and they refuse to take any steps to prepare him for the fact that they won’t always be around. He is verbal but doesn’t work, he doesn’t even have a mobile phone as he refuses one and they just accept it. My dad is a hoarder and I hate visiting their home as it stresses me out. I have half-siblings on my dad’s who are 20 years older than me and don’t care about me despite my efforts to have a relationship (I’ve attempted to meet them on their birthdays etc to not even receive a text on mine).

I have dealt with so much anxiety over the years about how care for my parents and brother is likely to all fall on to me in the future as my parents age (my half siblings have no interest). I live an hour drive away as when I met my partner I moved to a different city to be with him. We can’t move to my parent’s city as my partner’s industry doesn’t exist there. I feel absolutely stifled by thoughts of the future. Due to my parents age and being carers they won’t be able to offer me any practical support with my baby. Since I moved an hour away 3 years they’ve visited me less than a handful of times.

Due to large age gaps with my siblings and the fact that my partner has no family in the UK, my child will have no cousins to grow up with except for kids my partner’s sister will have in Germany. I recently have been crying my eyes out as I’ve realised nobody in my family deserves to be godparents to my child, nobody gives a shit enough. We’ve already decided godparents will be partners sister and her partner.

Me and my partner are so lonely and desperate to be around people in a similar life stage. He was quite depressed his last birthday as it fell during a heatwave and he wanted to have a BBQ and realised there was just nobody to really invite so we didn’t bother. It’s getting to him now we’re having a child I think.

Our part of the UK is incredibly rough and our car was stolen a few months ago. I hate the UK rainy grey weather and get seasonal depression, I know Germany is hardly a hot country but the UK is particularly bad due to being an island and we’ve enjoyed many lovely summer BBQs and outdoor parties when visiting Germany previously. I’ve always said no to my partner when he’s suggested moving as I feel bad leaving my parents, but since becoming pregnant I’ve started to want to prioritise baby more and I feel they will be better off if we go to Germany. I only really want 1 child but feel pressure to have 2 if we stay in the UK as I feel the child will be lonely, but it’s different if they will have cousins which they will have in Germany. My, my partner, my partner’s sister and her partner will all be able to support each other.

We have the money to emigrate and get settled - £25,000 in savings. This was originally meant to be a house deposit in the UK but every time we’ve found a home we’ve had to pull out due to the house having major damp issues. Every house in our budget is awful and requires major renovation works. We’ve essentially given up.

I have decided I want to go, I know it won’t be easy to find a rental and jobs etc but I want to at least start the process even if it takes a couple of years. Due to my partner’s EU citizenship I can tag along with him to get residency. I think it’s best for me, my partner and the baby. But I know it will break my mums heart. Can anyone give any insight please? Just to add as well they won’t be able to visit me at all as they are poor, and my dad and brother refuse to travel and mum refuses to leave them.

Mum was worried when I first starting dating someone from another country and said from day 1 “please don’t emigrate.”

Am I a selfish cow?

Because of EU treaty rights, it's actually a bonus that neither are German. It's far easier for OP that her partner is a citizen of another EU state.
They're both entitled to full rights to live and work in Germany immediately.

OP isnt a member of an EU state

Oh dear! How is it snobbery to bring someone back down to earth who isn't being realistic and may end up easily in a bad situation! You've admitteed yourself that a career couple with your finances would be in a far better position? There's no snobbery, just sensible people Vs people like you who would happily gas light people into a bad situation?

1. the OP is describing turning up in a new country without her or her partner having a job lined up!
2. she says if things get hard she'll work - due forgets that she'll be alone with a new baby whilst he works and that's if he gets a job.
3. if he loses his job or has to go back to his country or splits up with her - she has no right to stay anywhere in the EU without earning her own ample income to apply to stay.
4. she would come home to homelessness and pennilessness and potentially being estranged from her family! Not a clever situation with a baby!
5. her work experience is call centre work, something you can't transfer to somewhere you aren't very fluent in listening and speaking the language.
6. they don't have great finances and the expense of a baby coming, they could end up living in a very rough area somewhere and be very isolated! Her being stuck in a crap flat in a shit hole area with a baby day in day out is not going to be a magical experience! If post natal depression hits she will be in a very bad place.
7. you and her seem to be working on the assumption that babies are always born perfect - what if it has disabilities? Special needs? Why is anything I've just mentioned snobbery? It isn't is it! It's critical common sense!

The pipe dream would be if I could land a role which can be done fully remotely within the UK, in which I could then maybe suggest to work within Europe and remain employed by the company. That way only DH would be job-searching once out there. I know people have done this successfully but these jobs are like gold dust. A family friend went to Malága and still works in an administrative role for a UK firm.

I wouldn’t commit to further university study but I am happy to undertake an online course when I’m on mat leave, during days in which DP can have the baby (which would be 50% of the time).

We’ve decided we definitely want to go so just weighing up options on how to actually do it.

I currently work in insurance and there’s opportunities to progress within my company but as it’s a financial service, it’s FCA regulated and therefore I assume most roles would need to be done within the UK.

A Recruitment/Talent Acquisition role might be a good shout? I believe I would have transferable skills from my time doing phone customer service and as a front desk agent in the tourism industry in Canada.

No. That's where the treaty rights come into it.

Quite frankly I’m already living in an unpleasant area in a city I don’t like with a family who don’t support me and are an active stressor within my life.

You’re quite obsessively posting on this thread and seem desperate to be some sort of saviour.

You’ve also repeatedly ignored that I’m literally engaged and would be married by the time we go.

I’ve never said I’m going tomorrow and I’m certainly not going to go whilst bloody pregnant. We’re simply discussing ideas. Goodness me.

She hasn't! She's not married to him, she does not have any special privileges over the rest of us that have been impacted by Brexit! He won't matter if the relationship dissolves, she'll not be eligible to stay there if it goes wrong with him because she won't have the income. Have you not listened to how hard everything has become since Brexit?

Have you considered a job in Sales, @tangotingo? I only ask because ds3 is currently working in sales for a software firm, and is working fully remotely - something like that might work for you?

Potentially! I’ve done sales in retail before. I have to be careful what sector though - anything which is FCA regulated (so anything which would involve offering clients credit agreements or insurance) is likely to need to be done in the UK.

“ You need to investigate jobs and housing before you plan to go anywhere!”

That’s what I’ve been doing for the entire fecking thread, and years of my life before that.

Do calm down. I’ll go and lock myself in a padded room for a few years, since I’m pregnant and that is required of me.

There’s a difference between giving your opinion, and haranguing. She heard what you had to say. Repeatedly. That your warnings have failed to dissuade her does not mean she hasn’t acknowledged and considered the risks. She does, and accepts them.

Tbf, there are less desirable areas of Hamburg, but it’s not ‘rough’ in comparison to other major cities. Where she lives now has a higher overall crime rate. The apartment blocks, and Hamburg really doesn’t have the stereotypically ugly Brutalist plattenbau, are generally of good quality too.

I don’t think that Germany is far away and you deserve a chance to be happy.

that said you sound rather passive and unable to create a life you want in this country despite
significant savings. It will be even harder to do so in a foreign country.

How are you at picking up languages? I’m useless at it and still can’t really speak French despite working in France for 3 years total here and there, there’s just something in my brain that finds it really hard. Did you learn a language at school, and how did it go?

not sure how German nursery works but presuming you can put your child in there and then work yourself I think you will be ok finding a job. At the end of the day there are always cleaning jobs, you could look for a nannying job for a family who wants their child to learn English or for an ex pat family. Things like that perhaps. I had no problem finding jobs in France or Canada when I moved over there with no job…admittedly I worked for U.K. tour operators while in France and when in Canada there was no language issue though

She’s got form for this sort of thing. She attacked an OP on another thread who had been offered a high-paying role abroad in the sector in which they had their degree. The OP disclosed they had worked in a minimum wage job for a year prior due to poor mental health, and this poster fixated on that and told her the job offer couldn’t possibly be real due how unemployable and undesirable she was.

Highly unpleasant individual who seems to enjoy honing in on people’s weaknesses and then actively shitting on any attempt they make to make a difference to their lives.

This is absolutely NOT true. EU treaty rights are not impacted by Brexit, other than UK citizens are now third country nationals.

As the long term partner of an EU citizen, OP is fully entitled to live in any EU country other than that which her partner is a national of, as long as he has a job. She is entitled to work as well as residency.

If they break up her status will be more precarious, but there are ways she could stay individually, especially as she will be the parent of an EU citizen.

I will say to OP that it will all be easier if you are married, and I would recommend you marry before you go. You don't have to, but it makes things simpler.

I suspect some repliers are reacting a little to the idea that a modest life in Germany might be better than a modest life in England - and that people might actually vote with their feet.

People also make decisions in their children's interests, and it's not unreasonable to choose a country for the sale of their children having better opportunities. Immigrants to the UK have done it for decades, taking jobs for which they're massively overqualified.

I wouldn’t say we are passive as such. We’ve had several attempts to buy property in the UK fall through due to the properties having severe issues come up at survey, properties being undervalued by banks, unreasonable sellers etc. We’ve lost £10,000 in the process. We would need to take on a huge mortgage in able to buy a house in a safe area that wouldn’t require major works. Our entire savings pot would be gone overnight due to house deposit. This, combined with the fact we will have 2 children (and the associated childcare costs) if we stay in the UK means we would face a financially crippling few years even if we both got pay-rises and worked full-time. Our childcare bill for 2 would be the same cost as the mortgage. If someone became disabled or redundant after buying the property, we’d be up shits creek without a paddle. Could also buy a property in a cheaper area but I want my children to grow up in a safe environment, with access to green spaces, and the area needs to have good transport. I don’t want to spend all my savings buying a house in an area where gang crime is active within the local high school (yes, really). I’ve become really disillusioned with the obsession we have in the UK that “you must own your own home”.

I know being skint is par for the course for young families, but we just don’t see that it would necessarily be worth it for us. We don’t have a support network in the UK. We have acquaintances but they have their own lives and we wouldn’t be an active presence in each other’s family lives. Our closest friend, ironically, has moved abroad.

We would not be looking to buy a property if we re-located to the EU, not for many years anyway. We’d want to rent and have flexibility for our growing family. Renting is much more secure in a lot of Europe than in the UK. Childcare costs in the countries we are considering are also extremely low-cost or even free, which also helps.

That’s a good point.

I feel we may be able to offer our children more value to their lives if we relocate from the UK.

If we stay in the UK and buy a house, yes they’ll inherit which is major. We’ll have better opportunities to increase our income, but the childcare years would be incredibly tough alongside a mortgag.

If we raise them in Germany, it’s of course true we won’t be rolling in money and we won’t have a big house etc etc. I know that. But our children will benefit from an education system which I feel is much more suited to child development than the UK system. They’ll benefit from low-cost higher education once they reach that age. They’ll have an auntie and a cousin nearby, which yes isn’t the be-all-and-end-all but I know from my childhood I grieved not having this. Further extended family (grandparents etc) in DP’s country would be a 5 hour drive away, which is a fairly long way but not massively so.

They will be able to speak their father’s language with their aunt and cousin, and would have the opportunity to be trilingual in English, German and DP’s language.

Ah! Yes, emigration does seem to attract a certain hostility from some.

It’s fine to not particularly like a country/want to settle there permanently, and to prefer (even the prospect of) another. No one place is going to suit anyone, and it doesn’t have to. If emigration is an option open to you, and you want to go, then absolutely go for it. It’s hardly like you have to exhaust all other UK-based options first.

OP I've lived in Germany before as a non German. My british husband is a German speaker and he found it hard to establish a career there despite graduating from a German university. We both found it hard tbh and moved back to London quite quickly.

I have lived in both London and Germany, find the uk much easier than germany. We bought a flat in London in our 20s, in berlin there were so many people competing for one studio apartment, we were even living in hostels because we couldn't find a rental in time. While rental protection is higher for existing tenants, it is much more competitive if you want to move. I think mortgages are easier to get in the UK too particularly for foreigners, I got a mortgage without indefinite leave to remain

I have a young baby too and honestly we have no family here despite dh being British as he is no contact..however there are lots of baby groups and classes where we are. So when you have a baby, you will get more opportunities to meet other parents

Hello Op. I’m sure you’re live to it, and it’s one of many things to think about, but just to be very careful about the tax implications re earning / being employed in one country remotely, and living in another. Good luck with everything xx

Cos freedom of movement also means freedom to move back. Dh is a British national who went to germany to study his masters degree (fluent german speaker with family in germany and had spent all his summers in German). We had met in the uk while doing undergraduate and he wanted to marry me. So I went to germany to marry him and got the right to live in germany as his spouse as he was exercising treaty rights as a student and later worker.

However we did not think unlike OP that germany is much easier for a young couple, let alone with a baby even though dh speaks German at native level (he has a masters in German law)..he found the job market extremely tough and the housing market v difficult (hundreds of applications for 1 studio rental). We had an easier time in London where we managed to buy a 2 bed flat in our 20s after 3 years of saving.. one big reason why we moved back other than the job market was that even if I managed to master German, I didnt think I could tutor my child in German. Germany has a grammar school system so children get slotted into different streams much earlier..

If you decided you definitely want to go, the first thing to do is learn the language. Take it from someone who has now lived in 3 countries and speaks 3 languages (including German). Language is essential. Yes, plenty of Germans speak good English. But German is absolutely essential for jobs and for making friends. Your child will also be going to nursery speaking German, you need to speak it to support him.

Start German classes now. Don't mess about with just duolingo or another app. You need proper lessons and structure. Learning German from scratch to a level where you can be fluent enough to get a job will take 1-2 years of hard study.

The only thing is the german school system to be aware of is it is kind of like a grammar system here which not everyone prefers. If your kid is bright then great, but they get funnelled into the choices they can take way earlier than in the UK.