AIBU, fear of death

[aliveandhealthy]

I was raised a Christian and grew up believing in god however I've recently come to the realisation that god is very very unlikely. For anyone interested here is my reasoning behind this conclusion:

A lot of people argue that the universe has to have a cause. The universe doesn't have to make sense, we cant just extend human logic to the universe. According to Einsteins Theory of Relativity, the big bang was the beginning of time. The argument "what came before the universe" or "how could the universe have appeared out of nowhere" doesn't make sense as there is quite literally no BEFORE the universe (time emerged alongside it). I know, mindboggling. That's why I said the universe doesn't' have to make sense it doesn't follow human logic.

Second of all it's very clear that all religions are created by humans. There is no reason to believe we are the centre of gods creation. Animals have conscience and it is VERY likely intelligent life exists somewhere else in the universe. There is no reason to assume we are special (like mosts religions suggest) simply because we appear to have more intelligence than other species. Also it's illogical to assume that god, the creator of the entire universe, would care about petty things, such as sex before marriage, gay sex, all these sins in the bible, these are very clearly moral values imposed by humans.

Also religion is very clearly based on fear. People are scared of death and so they resort to believing in a higher power and an afterlfie for comfort. People are scared of the unkown and so they use religon to explain concepts that cannot be explained. In the Roman Empire people used to believe gods are responsible for storms. Now we know that storms are caused by weather cycles and so this explanation falls apart. And yet we still have many unanswered questions, such as why does the universe exist, and so people resort to religion to explain them. People are also very scared to question religion, as they fear leaving it could lead to eternal suffering, hell. Religion is so powerful because most never question it due to fear of what happens if they do and due to how powerfully they've been indoctrinated.

There is no reason to believe your religion is any more true than any other religion. I used to be christian and I used to convince myself that christianity is real based on "all of the evidence for christ". Now that I look at this evidence from an objective standpoint it's very clear it cannot be held as actual evidence. For example the proof we have that Jesus resurrected are accounts written 100 years after his death by people who weren't alive at the time of his life. All religion has equal evidence. NONE. It is irrational to believe your religion is any more true than any other religion simply because of faith. There's literally zero reason when all have no evidence. Everyone claims their religion is the ONLY true religion.

As a result I've become quite sad recently, acknowledging that all of us have an inevitable death. Neuroscience makes it clear that conscience is an illusion created by the brain. As neurological activity ceases, conscience also ceases. I've heard that you won't suffer during death as you won't be aware of your non existence, just like before birth. But can you imagine your conscience not existing forever? It's crazy that one day we will not exist for eternity. I understand we won't feel it, just like we didn't feel anything before birth, but at least before birth our lives were still to come and after death what if there's nothingness forever? Sad really.

Is my fear irrational, has anyone been in a similar situation?

If we were born even 500 years later, biological immortality will maybe be possible. Death wouldn't be an issue. If only we were born a little later...

Re the fallen world - my understanding is that that was Adam and Eve’s transgression. I’d understood that Jesus took away the sins of the world and removed that stain. Although an omnipotent and benevolent God could just forgive sins. He doesn’t have to shrug and say ‘Ah well, some of the beings I created have done things I don’t like so I’ll have to let the children of other people who haven’t committed sins die of malaria or be born with agonising disabilities’.

As for saying it’s getting darker because it’s supposed to - you don’t think that strengthens your idea of a benevolent God do you? And religious people have been saying we are in the end times for approximately ever anyway. When things got darker in 1914 and 1939 it wasn’t the end times, was it?

So God helped your friend but not all the children dying of malaria nd congenital issues? Why? Why pick her and not them? Why not all of them if he’s benevolent and omnipotent? How does that square with perfect love and perfect justice?

Hi @cardibach I’ve found it easiest to cut up your msg to answer if that’s ok, your text I’ve highlighted with a =

= Re the fallen world - my understanding is that that was Adam and Eve’s transgression. I’d understood that Jesus took away the sins of the world and removed that stain.

Yes we believe Jesus paid for our sins by his sacrifice on the cross, but forgiveness is not automatic. It’s basically up to us to ‘opt in’ or ‘opt out’, we get a choice. Adam and Eve sinned but so has everyone, we know this because of the weight of evil and violence throughout history and all the evil people do in the world today. So Jesus took our sins upon himself and paid for them but it is up to us to choose whether to accept or not. It’s like love, no one can force you to love someone or accept love from someone. So the choice is ours, we can receive or reject Jesus and his forgiveness.

I would encourage you to check it out for yourself, look at the evidence as to whether Jesus was who he claimed to be. Start with the New Testament and read about his life and then look at the supporting evidence for the resurrection and the historical records that cross reference the gospel accounts, those written by non-Christian Roman officials and Jewish historians like Flavius Josephus. Don’t judge Jesus based on Christians who are flawed people and can get things wrong and misrepresent him (a lot). Unfortunately plenty of people call themselves Christian but their actions and words are completely at odds. I’ve seen false teaching in churches, replacement theology and worse. There are some amazing ones too and some true and wonderful people who do a great job representing Christ and his love, but at the end of the day we’re all imperfect representations of him.

In the New Testament we see Jesus fulfilling the prophecies of the long awaited Jewish messiah in his first coming as ‘Mashiach Ben Joseph’ when he came as a suffering servant, and when he chose to give his life on the cross this was to pay the ‘ransom of many’. The remaining prophecies are about Jesus’s return, which will not be like his first coming but as the king of kings ‘Mashiach Ben David,’ to judge the earth and establish his eternal kingdom. So because of the weight of evil that has been done since people arrived there is a lot of sin, personal, national and on the land. The Bible tells us that God will judge people and the nations.

= Although an omnipotent and benevolent God could just forgive sins. He doesn’t have to shrug and say ‘Ah well, some of the beings I created have done things I don’t like so I’ll have to let the children of other people who haven’t committed sins die of malaria or be born with agonising disabilities’.

I’m a bit confused about the shrugging bit, sorry is there a different way to frame this? God does forgive sins, forgiveness is central and the bible teaches how important it is (to receive and to practice).

= As for saying it’s getting darker because it’s supposed to - you don’t think that strengthens your idea of a benevolent God do you?

So it was never the plan for things to be like this, we had a beautiful world and broke it. We’re living with the consequences of the millions of choices people have made for millennia. We haven’t looked after our planet, so we are now living with the consequences - a sick and polluted world and wildlife is dying and losing their habitats. The rich do not share and the poor suffer, governments are corrupt and push their own power hungry agendas and oppress the people they should be governing. Sexual immorality has fully grown into a multi billion pound global sex trafficking industry, exploiting and destroying countless lives. People are despairing and depressed. God didn’t design all this brokenness, he didn’t cause the pollution and the corruption, he’s not to blame for the pollution of our bad choices. All this darkness is very man made. However the good news is that God has (and is) the antidote! There’s a proverb that I think applies well from the book of Hosea about sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind. As a whole, humanity has chosen to sow the wind and we’re reaping the whirlwind. The gospel message is hope though, we have a saviour who cares and rescues us to safety. His plan is to redeem the world, he is the Good Shepherd.

= And religious people have been saying we are in the end times for approximately ever anyway. When things got darker in 1914 and 1939 it wasn’t the end times, was it?

It true there have been horrific periods in history, but I’m referring specifically to end times prophecies that we are seeing being fulfilled in our lifetime, such as the destruction of Damascus : “In early 2026, Aleppo presents a stark contrast of, fragile, localized reconstruction efforts alongside renewed military instability. Following clashes in January 2026, significant portions of the city remain in ruins, with roughly two-thirds damaged and infrastructure struggling, yet some commercial life, like the traditional souqs and soap factories, continues.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/19/world/europe/syria-aleppo-damascus-damage-reconstruction.html

= So God helped your friend but not all the children dying of malaria nd congenital issues? Why? Why pick her and not them? Why not all of them if he’s benevolent and omnipotent? How does that square with perfect love and perfect justice?
I need to sign off now but will come back to this when I get a chance. Am out for the weekend, I hope you have a good one and catch up again with this thread next week x

So - the first point. Why do religious people always assume non-believers have t done any research or reading? I know more about Christianity and its texts than many Christians. I have looked. I think it’s so contradictory as to be impossible to believe.
Re forgiveness - yes, forgiveness is central - if you do the right things. That doesn’t seem very loving. But the main point I made was in relation to you saying bad things happening because of sin and the ‘fallen world’. How have children born with terrible, painful conditions sinned? Babies dying of malaria? Why does this benevolent God let this happen because some people sin - all while curing your friend.
If things happen that arent the plan, then he’s not omniscient. If he were omniscient he’d have known this would happen and adjusted accordingly. Why didn’t he?

Hi @cardibach apologies for the long post coming but I hope this answers at least some of the important points you raised. I tried to write a shorter reply earlier but failed(!). Anyway I’ve tried my best, wishing you well and let know what you think x

Hi @cardibach, I hope you had a good weekend and thank you for this. I think your questions are so real and honest and valid. Thank you for raising them.

The question of suffering is one of the biggest challenges we face and probably the biggest objection to the Christian faith and existence of God. How can He possibly be loving and allow suffering at the same time? Where is God in suffering and what is his response? Innocent babies die and how does this fit with a loving, merciful God.

Sorry for the long post(!), this has turned out to be a bit of an essay but I’ve tried to take the time to write a thoughtful response.

Firstly God is not above suffering, disinterested or distant from it. There’s lots suffering in the bible, we see it across both the old and New Testaments. There is also a weight of scriptural promises regarding suffering, how God is sovereign protector and defends those who call on his name. He is close to the brokenhearted and comforts them (Psalm 34): “The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit”. In Isaiah 61 God promises to “Comfort all who mourn (grieve)..give them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning and a garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness”. Ultimately, there will be an end to all suffering (Revelation 21:4) “And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” This is the gift of grace and eternal life through Jesus.

The God of the bible is shown to rescue his people from suffering and death, and also at times allow suffering (see the book of Job and Ruth). He also stands alongside people in the midst of their suffering, for example the children of Israel when they were slaves in Egypt suffered under the brutality of forced slave labour for 400 years! They waited a LONG time for their deliverance, but he did come and did deliver them in the most spectacular way. The Exodus account is recorded in ancient manuscripts and archeological evidence as well so it is not just some tall tale ‘made up by Christians’ (who didn’t exist then) but a real, evidential history of God’s people - the birth and history of the nation of Israel.

Can I tell you why God waited for centuries before intervening to redeem his people? No, I can’t. Timing must be key, but I don’t know the reason for this timing. Can I tell you why my friend was miraculously healed in hospital from a broken spine, but other prayers for healing that day were not answered in the same way? No, I can’t. Can I tell you why a baby born with no brain (like Jacob Phillips, now 44) was healed but not others? No, I can’t. Or babies who recovered from cancer (like Gideon ) but others have not. No. I can’t even tell you why I have been powerfully healed of some things and not others. A disease causing infertility and pain was instantly and transformatively healed through the power of the Holy Spirit when I was younger, but in adulthood I am living with a chronic and disabling condition. I want to share that God gives me grace and strength I cannot account for in any natural way. Strength (physical and mental) that is not my own, he picks me up when I am struggling, he helps me through my daily struggles, he cares for me, he has held me and loved me through it all. Two years ago I was so ill I was immobile, could not speak and didn’t know which room I was in, but he did not leave me in that terrible place. Jesus brought me out and through to healing and recovery, he made a way through an impossible situation. He carried me so tenderly. I suffered but was never alone. He was with me, he is still with me, he will always be with me and anyone who opens their heart to him. It is true love, that is the best way I can describe it, true love. He breaks through my pain and lifts me when it gets too much, he carries me on days I cannot cope and weeps with me - on days like this - when I spent the first 4 hours of this day in tears - he is with me and has given me beautiful comfort and soothing to my body, mind and soul. He has restored my mobility, speech, heart and breathing function. I am not as I was 10 years ago, and have long term effects that make some days very difficult BUT I have had a life returned to me and am again well enough to look after my family and enjoy life. God’s love I cannot deny, I cannot live without it or fathom its depth, breadth, height and power. God’s love is life, purity, grace, it is redeeming, saving, grieving and he wants us. All those babies cardibach, all of them who died they are all with him, they are safe with the Father. They are being cared for in heaven, there are so many witness accounts to this, but even without this I would believe it because I know His heart for children. Those of us left behind, in the world so broken we have to face the reality of our loss and grief, death, despair and pains so deep we cannot describe, there are no words but we are not alone in our suffering. God cares and suffers with us. If you want to know is what God is like look at Jesus. He bears our pains and carries our griefs, a man of sorrows. He also promises to lead us out, like how this person describes the midwife to hold on, new life is coming! (See video links below). There is a way out of the dark pit, there is hope. With all my heart I believe and know that Jesus is the way. He has rescued me out of my dark pit, more than once. His love is so big he will never give up, he will never stop rescuing. He is in the rescuing business and will never stop.

This is a big area, and I would question anyone who tries to give you a brief simplistic answer because suffering is multi faceted and God response to it is profound and multi faceted too. Human suffering is shown in God’s word, the life of Jesus and in the lives of many people myself included. It isn’t some theology Christians can package up all neatly and present as hey this has been covered let’s paste this answer over the top and move on, no it is an ongoing dynamic challenging, brutal, visceral truth of our existence and no one should ever try to minimise the grief of others. God’s compassion never minimises or suppresses, it enters in, it grieves with, weeps with, holds tight, cradles and rocks us through pain and gives living hope that is like oxygen beyond suffocating grief. Revealing a future of hope and purpose beyond it, because life on earth is not the end.

Suffering is universal and complex and something I think we should be more open about and have an open dialogue. I tried to answer your question in the frame of how we live in a fallen world, evil and death being all around us but this is not the original design. Since the fall in the garden the world has become broken and saturated in sin, evil, corruption and death. If we could see it I think we would be shocked (sometimes I wonder what would it would look like if we could physically see it, would it be knee deep? Chest high? Swimming pool deep or even like the oceans?) Disease is rife and like you said things like malaria take the lives of innocent babies. This is the reality of our world in its current broken state, but God has promised not to abandon humanity in this state, his plan for redemption is at work and very active. There is a very real promise of overcoming death - an open invitation to overwrite death with eternal life and the restoration of everything we have lost. The watershed moment occurred 2000 years ago on the cross and is still redeeming lives today. There is miraculous accounts of babies surviving malaria too but I know your question is why this baby and not another and that is a question I don’t think we will know or be able to answer this side of heaven. But I do know those babies are safe and have a beautiful life they didn’t get to live down here.

I searched some online teachings to see if I could post a link to something that others more knowledgeable than me could offer but it was hard to find a fit. My search wasn’t exhaustive (due to limited time) but I didn’t want to post a link for something that was just a matter-of-fact delivery like a lot of the apologists (which can come across a bit flat and unfeeling) and certainly not the over the top, emotional, sensationalised preaching that frankly, even as a believer I find really off putting (some evangelicals are awful for this). And some that are good but technical as far as theology goes so also didn’t really hit the mark. Anyway, I found a series of short videos on YouTube on ‘Suffering’, 33 short videos that are real and personal and I think speak to the heart of ‘where is God’ in suffering. I found myself relating to more than one, and is one of the reasons it was quite a tearful morning for me(!). I will copy a couple of the videos below but the whole series is well worth a watch:

This is the whole series:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsahuu_56li-y1aYpXDsNX8zHCGNuUFRk&si=dk1IglPwaDK048rL

One of the things I love about God is that he absolutely has no problem with our questions, big or small, theoretical, personal. He doesn’t always answer in the way we expect but he does listen and answer and invites us into deeper understanding, ‘Come, let us reason together’ (Isaiah 1:18).

The nothingness.. I’m not frightened of it for me, but I couldn’t get my head round talking to my grandma one day, the next there was nothing.

@ImGoingtoSayitButyouWontBelieveme that boils down to - ‘yes, God lets people suffer’. Which I know from my own experience. It’s an absolute deal breaker for me. I can’t believe in someone who is supposed to be benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent and allows innocents to suffer. I do t trust such an entity. So no, you can’t make me have faith in him. He’s unreliable. As bad as the Greek and Roman gods who I assume you don’t trust or believe in.

Also just wanted to add in addition to my reply above, that I didn’t mean this to come across like I was assuming no research etc for people who do not believe. Many people do including academic scholars, people who undertake deep study, some become Christian and others hold atheist or agnostic belief. I am interested in and respect the ideas of atheistic scholars. I don’t agree with their faith perspective, but I do respect them.
I’m interested in the contradictions you mention, are you able to share what these were? as I’d like to understand more about this.

I think as far as forgiveness goes it’s as simple as receiving it or not, rather than doing it/ receiving it in a ‘right way’? I might have not caught what you meant here, but there isn’t some mystical special ritual for it or anything, it’s available to all and freely offered.

I meant he’ll only forgive you if you worship him. Not benevolent or reasonable.

But, @cardibach , how can we exist, without suffering? We have bodies of flesh and bone and blood, and emotions?

Even if we had supernatural strength and vitality (all of us) and our bodies were perfect and imperishable, what about the emotional harm people cause eachother, emotional suffering?

I think it would be lovely and peaceful tbh. I am very glad there is no afterlife. If i didn't have to work or endure horrid treatment then maybe it would be ok.

I think it would be lovely and peaceful tbh. I am very glad there is no afterlife. If i didn't have to work or endure horrid treatment then maybe it would be ok.

I think the opposite is more evident, that he is loving and is trying to reason with us in our human understanding about the truth of our condition. Our soul is not visible, so it is hard for us to grasp as flesh and blood people, its existence and import. It is easier for people to believe in the material physical world we can touch and see.

Try and watch the videos I sent before if you get a chance. It echos my own experience of pain, but also redemption on the other side. In my case I am living with disabling disease and although it has been crushingly hard sometimes, my faith is stronger then it was before I got ill. I can support others going through similar difficulties/ struggles and pain, and relate to them and encourage them in a way I would not otherwise be able to.

That’s very, very weak. Why are we in such fragile bodies if a benevolent and omnipotent god created us? It just makes no sense. No internal logic.

No thanks. I don’t need YouTube loons getting themselves confused trying to explain the inexplicable. It doesn’t add up. Any of it.