AIBU, fear of death

[aliveandhealthy]

I was raised a Christian and grew up believing in god however I've recently come to the realisation that god is very very unlikely. For anyone interested here is my reasoning behind this conclusion:

A lot of people argue that the universe has to have a cause. The universe doesn't have to make sense, we cant just extend human logic to the universe. According to Einsteins Theory of Relativity, the big bang was the beginning of time. The argument "what came before the universe" or "how could the universe have appeared out of nowhere" doesn't make sense as there is quite literally no BEFORE the universe (time emerged alongside it). I know, mindboggling. That's why I said the universe doesn't' have to make sense it doesn't follow human logic.

Second of all it's very clear that all religions are created by humans. There is no reason to believe we are the centre of gods creation. Animals have conscience and it is VERY likely intelligent life exists somewhere else in the universe. There is no reason to assume we are special (like mosts religions suggest) simply because we appear to have more intelligence than other species. Also it's illogical to assume that god, the creator of the entire universe, would care about petty things, such as sex before marriage, gay sex, all these sins in the bible, these are very clearly moral values imposed by humans.

Also religion is very clearly based on fear. People are scared of death and so they resort to believing in a higher power and an afterlfie for comfort. People are scared of the unkown and so they use religon to explain concepts that cannot be explained. In the Roman Empire people used to believe gods are responsible for storms. Now we know that storms are caused by weather cycles and so this explanation falls apart. And yet we still have many unanswered questions, such as why does the universe exist, and so people resort to religion to explain them. People are also very scared to question religion, as they fear leaving it could lead to eternal suffering, hell. Religion is so powerful because most never question it due to fear of what happens if they do and due to how powerfully they've been indoctrinated.

There is no reason to believe your religion is any more true than any other religion. I used to be christian and I used to convince myself that christianity is real based on "all of the evidence for christ". Now that I look at this evidence from an objective standpoint it's very clear it cannot be held as actual evidence. For example the proof we have that Jesus resurrected are accounts written 100 years after his death by people who weren't alive at the time of his life. All religion has equal evidence. NONE. It is irrational to believe your religion is any more true than any other religion simply because of faith. There's literally zero reason when all have no evidence. Everyone claims their religion is the ONLY true religion.

As a result I've become quite sad recently, acknowledging that all of us have an inevitable death. Neuroscience makes it clear that conscience is an illusion created by the brain. As neurological activity ceases, conscience also ceases. I've heard that you won't suffer during death as you won't be aware of your non existence, just like before birth. But can you imagine your conscience not existing forever? It's crazy that one day we will not exist for eternity. I understand we won't feel it, just like we didn't feel anything before birth, but at least before birth our lives were still to come and after death what if there's nothingness forever? Sad really.

Is my fear irrational, has anyone been in a similar situation?

If we were born even 500 years later, biological immortality will maybe be possible. Death wouldn't be an issue. If only we were born a little later...

There’s a Christian forum on mumsnet, you can preach to the converted.

I don’t believe in heaven and hell, or god in a traditional sense. But I also don’t believe we die and just cease to exist. Beyond that, I have no idea.

Dying scares me. Death doesn't

I've spent most of the span of the universe not existing, going back to that state doesn't worry me at all.

The pain and suffering that comes just before it on the other hand...

As I’ve said before on this thread, my dad always said there’s nothing his children could do that would stop him loving us or mean he wouldn’t forgive us. So are you saying God is a vengeful father? Less good at parenting than my dad?
And I’d still like an answer about why an omnipotent God might let chikdren die of malaria or congenital issues.

I was also brought up in a very religious household and until fairly recently I always slightly had the "what if" feeling that another PP refers to.

I think what changed for me was having a disabled child. She doesnt deserve to have the conditions she was born with. Any god who can do this to an innocent child because other people dont believe in him is not a god I want to follow.

I suppose I still look at the world and find nature so amazing that it's sometimes hard to believe it just happened but maybe that is just how it is. Our minds are really quite limited in some ways and I don't think many of us spend much time pondering the miracle of life.

To be honest all that bothers me about death now is that it's not going to be horrible. I also do really worry about DD though if I'm not here. That is something that does frighten me about death.

So you're saying that the shooter was bullied and that's what caused the shooting.

Yes, words can be hurtful. Like what you're saying right now.

I am not religious, but I am quite a spiritual person, and always interested in the beliefs and thoughts of others, and in different religions.

Our brains are not able to comprehend the vastness of the universe, and concepts of death and eternity, and I think this is why it creates such a specific and consuming fear in people, because however hard we try, our brains are unable to go there. I think we can try, but the closest we will get to exploring these concepts can only come from a place of calm, not from fear as a starting point.

I don't know of course what happens to us, and our world, in eternity. But what I find the most comforting, is the understanding that the world, and life itself, is endlessly miraculous. The beauty and chemistry of the world and everything that lives on it is, in my opinion, pure magic. And if this exists - and we know it does - what's to stop there being something else magical that we can't possibly imagine in our lifetimes? Maybe there's nothing, but the thought of the world going on, and myself and my loved ones becoming part of it again, does comfort me. But maybe there is something that is impossible for us to imagine, that is as miraculous as life itself.

As Shakespeare wrote... 'there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.'

We are already in hell. Just look around.

<Looks around>. Nope.

Yes, this keeps me awake at night

I wasn’t going to come back, but I’ve been thinking about this thread.
I didn’t mean to offend about the school reference and apologise for mentioning it, you’re right it is too soon. Of course if I met any one who has suffered in that tradegy my response would be compassion and to help in any way possible, as anyone here would. I was involved in the Scarlett Lewis Forgiveness Project and communicated with her directly following Sandy Hook (if anyone remembers that). I guess that is why it was on my mind as an example of how harm can have terrible far reach. I thought it was a well known link, with the spate of US school shootings in recent years re: the bullying link (a quick search has brought up at least 6 examples)
‘Several American school shooters have reportedly been victims of bullying at the same schools they later attacked, a factor often cited by family, friends, and investigators.’

I should have made the point in a more neutral way but it is well known that many killers have abusive backgrounds. It does not excuse the behaviour, but it does show a link. There are also ppl that have (quote) ‘normal’ upbringings and still go on to commit violent crime, so is not a given.

Anyway I am not here to say hurtful things of scaremonger. If it came across like that, I am very sorry. When Jesus taught about heaven and hell he didn’t say those things to scare and hurt people. He warned people because he cares and doesn’t wants anyone to end up in the wrong place.

You can chose not to believe me and that’s fine, but I would give up my life (not my soul) if it meant I could trade that in to stop even one person going to hell. Just one. I mean that with all my heart.

You can still be angry with me if you like, honestly I won’t be offended.
I’ll try and answer any questions ppl might have as best I can

How about the one I’ve asked twice for a starter.
Why would a benevolent and omnipotent God allow children to die of malaria or be born with congenital issues which cause them pain and shorten their life - sometimes to days or weeks, sometimes they suffer longer.

I have a question. Why isn’t it enough for God that people are good, and kind, and do good things? Why do they also have to believe in God to go to heaven? Feels a bit narc-y to me. Surely if his priority was that people were good, whether they actively believed in him or not would be irrelevant to him?

Oh and another one, having seen that his plan to save mankind isn’t working, why do you think be hadn’t revised his plan? Feels like he’s setting people up to fail TBH.

Neuroscience makes it clear that conscience is an illusion created by the brain. As neurological activity ceases, conscience also ceases.

I haven’t RTFT so apologies if this has been discussed but I wonder do you mean consciousness rather than conscience? In either case, neuroscience proves no such thing. It’s an assumption held by many, but not all neuroscientists and it is certainly not proven.

But you'll be dead, so you won't know any of this! You won't exist, therefore you won't have any emotions. It really will be "blissful ignorance", if you will

I genuinely don't understand fear of death. If I die in my sleep tonight, that will be fine because I'll know absolutely nothing about it. Ever, because I won't be able to think or feel any emotion. Perfect.
I do understand fearing the process of dying, because of the possibility of pain, or of the whole thing just dragging on too long. I sincerely hope that if/when I receive a terminal diagnosis that I'll be able to end my life ASAP. Sadly, some people aren't so lucky.

Hi @cardibach and @GalaxyJam I will come back to answer more fully, (just going to bed and out tomorrow) for now I will say there are definitely others who answer the question of why does a good god allow suffering better than I can, and same re: why isn’t it enough to be kind and as good as we can be (this is about justice and God’s character as a holy judge).

When I think about children born into terrible suffering and death, I know God cares, he is not distant or absent, their lives are precious and of immeasurable worth. There is a man called Nick Vujicic who was born without arms and legs, severely congenitally disabled. There are videos about his story on YouTube but this one gives a short overview:

You honestly can see them after! There are so many people who have seen relatives in heaven, even family members that they never got to meet before on earth before they got there, like siblings lost to miscarriage and great-great grandparents

You have no way of knowing that, though. It's a nice, comforting thought to have but you can't possibly know.

Are you OK OP?
I am nominally Catholic and since I was a child thought the same. Religion is an organisation to keep people controlled with the promise of a reward in heaven for a life well lived here on earth.
i don’t think intelligent people can blindly follow a religion, it makes no rational sense.
has something happened to you recently that’s made you arrive at this?

I actually died once. Was out for longer than usually medically recoverable.

I had a few flashes as I went there and a bit of an out of body experience (very boring) and there was actually nothing once I was dead.

My only fear of death now is for the ones I leave behind. But actual death is a relief from pain.

He literally is absent though. If he wanted to he could stop it. Why doesn’t he? It’s a simple question.

Think of it like this. You will not be aware of being dead because consciousness will have ceased. Have you ever had a general anaesthetic? (one that worked!)... like that.

If there is something incomprehensible in terms of continued existence on some plane (which I have no reason to think there might be) my view is this: if there is some sort of deity in control of this I am sure he/she (as a supreme being) is not petty as humankind can be, but would not condemn an individual to eternal damnation ( whatever that looks like) just because they have been born into a culture with one religion or another.
Just do your best to lead a kind life, enjoy it and let eternity take care of itself.
Please do not waste a moment of your precious life being scared of death.

Hi, not sure if anyone is still here(?) but I’ve come back to hopefully answer more fully.

So there are definitely those much better qualified to answer than me, and there are some good teachings online, through YouTube etc which give a deep delve into this subject. Essentially my answer is still the same as before, that evil exists and we live in a fallen world, death is a consequence of sin. The world is in a very corrupted state. According to the bible it appears we are living in what is known as the ‘end times’ and to those that say God’s plan has failed it may seem that way, because things are getting darker BUT this is actually what is says will happen, in both OT prophets like Daniel, Ezekiel and Joel and the NT - Jesus’s own words/ teaching and in the book of Revelation. End times Bible prophecies are being fulfilled and to me this makes sense as most people don’t realise, but most biblical prophecy has actually already been fulfilled. Here is an interesting article that breaks down how many were fulfilled in Jesus: https://nickcady.org/2020/02/18/the-statistical-probability-of-jesus-fulfilling-the-messianic-prophecies/
There are hundreds of others across the OT and NT. Only the last bit is left and this is concerning the return of Christ and his kingdom reign.
Throughout the bible God demonstrates his commitment to keeping his promises again and again. He is very faithful and proves his faithfulness to his covenant people. Not with empty words, he really fulfils them and we can read it for ourselves if we want. By all accounts it appears we are living in the last chapter now and things are going to get very bad, very dark. It is described as the world going into labour pains. But will also see moves of God and the pouring out of his spirit like never before. So the things that will happen in the days leading up to Jesus’s return, lots of them we are seeing unfold.

The world is far from its original design (perfect love, life and unity with God). Babies dying and people suffering horrendously happens as the world is under the curse of death, but is not unseen or uncared for by God who cares more than I can possibly describe here.

There are many examples of God’s supernatural healing and intervention that prevented death in the bible (OT and the ministry of Jesus in the NT, then on into Acts and beyond) and also with many personal testimonies around the world. For me personally I have been healed of some things and not others and I have a close friend who’s broken spine was supernaturally healed in hospital (they were in agony and immobile due to the break and prayed to Jesus who came and instantly healed their broken spine, all pain gone and X-rays confirmed break had disappeared). It does not happen in every case and no one can say why in this case for that person and not another.

Perfect love and perfect justice are combined in God’s character - this is why he has to take sin seriously and to answer a pp about why can’t our best kind and good be good enough. Simply those things are great, but it does not take away the bad stuff. To give an extreme example, should a child killer who ‘only’ killed one child and otherwise led a wonderfully kind, selfless, good and giving life be spared punishment? True justice demands justice for the act of murder, despite a life time of good. I saw this video a few years ago and think it sums it up quite well:

*edit for typos

YABU.

It's called faith.