Teachers should have to follow the same rules

[RhaenysRocks]

Just seen yet another fb post about a schools banning skirts. Cue lots of comments about teachers shouldn't be allowed to wear them then either. Ditto make up, nail varnish etc. AIBU to think this just shows how ridiculously petty and narrow minded many adults are and that if that's the message coming from home then it's not surprising the behaviour in schools is so poor?

This isn't a debate about if skirts / make up should or shouldn't be allowed but the level of thinking that ends up with those comments. Can adults really not appreciate the difference between professional, qualified adults having latitude in what they wear (and many schools are actually very strict about dress code for staff) and children following a uniform code they've agreed to when they join?
So, YABU it's a valid comment
YANBU It shows a lack of maturity and thinking skills in parents that contributes to discipline issues in school.

Yes, it’s a stupid comment made by stupid people who don’t rate education and who also think that two weeks of the term spent eating and messing about in a swimming pool on an all-inclusive holiday abroad is ‘educational’.

Move on… social media will only remind you how thick many people are.

Yes I think it’s ridiculous but I would have been devastated to have to wear trousers at school. I was very short and curvy and had a very adult frame, which I grew into, but standard school issues would have been awful. What’s wrong with schools dictating every detail of teenagers appearance at the most sensitive time - I say this as a fan of sensible use of uniforms with options.

I think it makes sense to lead by example dependant on age of pupils. I agree most schools have dress codes for teachers as well but dependant on why they are banning skirts maybe it should apply to teachers too. I don’t think questioning it makes anyone immature.

But yes I do agree it’s a ridiculous argument.

My son’s school temporarily suspended a boy who had a red St George cross on his hair during some football tournament because the school didn’t allow ‘unnatural’ hair colours in their uniform policy. I went to parents evening and the languages teacher had blue, purple and red dye in her hair which I did think at the time wasn’t really appropriate based on the rule for pupils.

Yes, it is a ridiculous, small-minded argument. Should they stop driving cars too?

I'd agree thats not appropriate for a professional setting for anyone but that's not the same as my actual point. I really don't want this to be a debate about skirts or hair or whatever, but the attitude that underlies these types of responses.

What really frustrates me about comments like these, is that it makes mini-adults of children, and it infantalises adults.

if you can’t see the difference between a grown woman choosing to express her identity after having learned compliance, discipline and respect for adults, vs a young person who is being shown that they can do whatever they like at any age, then I have no hope.

I personally love the fact that uniform policies mean that for a few short years, a young person has to conform to something and respect the will of adults who run an institution.

There’s plenty of time to rebel later on (as the teacher no doubt shows) but there’s a time for actually learning boundaries, respect for adults, and being part of something. Letting kids have shaved flags in their hair just bypasses all that learning. It says we’re all little princes who can have whatever we want.

Yes it's dumb. People like that must have out of control kids if they don't believe in adults being in charge. What next? Teachers should wear school uniform? Parents shouldn't stop their kids running in the road or going out naked or insulting people in the street as they are equals and shouldn't be told what to do?

I get your point and agree that it would be a different set of rules for pupils and teachers. I just remember the story about the boy being in the local paper looking all dejected because he couldn’t go to school (in reality he was probably made up) there’s no way if my child was suspended for a uniform violation that I would go to the local newspaper.

my child’s school has a rule that ties must be worn, top buttons done up and blazers on at all times, unless the head has said it’s too hot. This is on the basis that children have to learn what is appropriate at work and applies to girls and boys.
Then he enforces that rule in a short sleeved shirt, no tie and no jacket, and his top button undone. Personally I think if you are going to enforce ridiculous uniform rules, you have to be prepared to follow them yourself. It’s massive hypocrisy if you are too hot to wear a jacket, to insist children do.
I don’t believe that shows a lack of critical thinking or maturity on my part, I think it shows that school uniform policies are insane.
I kind of get what you mean about the tit for tat “well they shouldn’t do it if they expect my child not to”, but I think a general rule that teachers can wear what they like and children must do as they are told, is inappropriate. Although I don’t care if a teacher has pink hair or a nose piercing, as long as they are teaching well.

I can see the difference, I didn’t complain about the teacher and my children weren’t allowed to dye their hair even in school holidays. I was just relaying something that occurred when my DC were in school.

Some rules: have to wear a blazer/jacket at all times, all pupils must wear trousers, no unnatural hair colours are IMO perfectly reasonable for staff to follow too.

Other rules, nail varnish, jewellery etc, I'm more flexible on for teachers while pupils aren't allowed.

Yes because in this world we don't allow adults to have anything that children aren't allowed. Im assuming all these parents don't drink, smoke, go to over 18 venues etc. Idiots.

But teachers CANT wear what they like in most schools. I can't teach in jeans, sportswear or shorts. I can't use unnatural hair dye, have visible tattoos or piercings other than earlobe ones. Other schools do allow their staff those things but I've chosen this one so I follow their rules. I do actually agree on your point about the temperature related issue as there is an identical temperature being experienced so similar allowances ought to be given..however, some schools' behaviour is so challenging that there's an element of -cant give an inch' thinking

I think it depends on the reason given. If the school says something along the lines of “our uniform policy is smart and professional and make up is therefore not suitable” then the rule should apply to teachers because the implication is the rule is in place because make up is unprofessional.
If they say “make up is not for children, plus you’re all spending too long at lunch and after PE faffing about redoing it” then that’s totally fine, and doesn’t apply to teachers.

Basically, I don’t like the pretence that uniform is somehow a preparation for work because it’s “professional” in nature - no one wears a tie and blazer to work any more, and most women wear make up to work. If you want them to wear a blazer and tie, just say “you have to wear the uniform and not wear make up because we bloody say so. Do as you’re told”. Don’t pretend you’re preparing them for a professional workplace while standing there, in your own professional workplace, not wearing that. I actually have no issue with uniform, but just give the honest reason which is “learn to do what you’re told even when you don’t like it. And we want the pictures on the website to look smart”.

Sadly, they pass this on to their dc and I spend a lot of my time as a form tutor being told - in very rude terms - that they should be able to do what they want, when they want because I am apparently allowed to do what I want, when i want and nobody makes me take out my nose piercing or makes me wear plain black shoes. But then the same students also like to tell me that women are inferior, we cry rape if we don't get what we want and students on Pupil Premium are benefit scroungers.

I despair to be honest.

(97% of students are lovely btw, even the other 3% are lovely but lacking boundaries and respect)

Agreed!!!!

I worked in a school where staff had a dress code - blazers/jackets, no bare legs, no toes on show, men in ties, no tattoos on show, no unnatural coloured hair.
we had a temp sent home because she kept wearing shoes that showed her toes despite being told twice.

One of DDs art teachers left because she was told her couldn’t dye her hair or have her tattoos on show all of a sudden- she’d been there 30 years! Such a waste.

I’m sorry but as the parent of a child who is well behaved (never had detention, isolation, has had two corrections in 2 years - 1 because I forgot to sign their organiser, 1 for being late which was also my fault as I was dropping them off) and who often asks why it’s not a fair run then I do see the point. 3 corrections in their school means a detention. On the day I forgot to sign their planner a look back showed 5 missed weeks when the teacher hadn’t. The school is forever emailing about the length of socks - above the ankle please - and girls must wear loose fitting trousers not tight fitting nor leggings (I’m really not sure why!) yet the teachers are regularly in leggings, sandals, one was in a pair of Crocs! The school say the uniform is a mark of respect, so when my child sees this their argument is that this doesn’t seem like it’s an equal respect. We’re in the process of moving schools (these examples are only the minority of the issue) and chose to do so having gone to an open evening. We were met by a headteacher in a flowery skirt and flip flops who talked with absolute pride that in the last 12 months they have had a total number of complaints of…0. The children are encouraged to use first names and they don’t have formal clubs, they have a games room where the kids can go and play board or card games if they want to. Their exam results also tell the story.

I had many of those rules in my professional workplace too. That wasn’t really the point of my post though tbh. My child’s school says that it is important that girl’s skirt reach their knees because it improves educational outcomes to follow uniform rules. Also that boy’s hair must not touch their collars. This is absolute b”?!,,,s. And if it’s true, why is it not also true that it improves work performance if you comply with a dress code? It doesn’t, of course.
I am a huge supporter of teachers, am educated to post graduate level, have taught myself, and I am grateful to you for the job you do. My child has been brought up to be respectful of teachers and school.
But school’s obsession with what children look like is insane to me, and it brings out a very argumentative part of me. It tells children that what they look like matters more than who they are, or what they achieve. It’s actively harmful for children whose body shape does not conform to the available school uniform sizes, and for anxious children terrified of getting it wrong and being in trouble. I do not believe this opinion means I am lacking in maturity, or critical thinking skills though. Critical thinking requires the ability to challenge things that make no sense, like “you will get worse GCSEs if your PE kit bottoms are grey instead of navy.”

And before someone tells me I chose the school so I must therefore accept the rules….there is no other school we are in catchment for.

No one thinks the colour of your joggers makes a difference to performance. They might think that accepting rules and following them instills discipline and an understanding that not everything might be how you like it but you have to do it anyway in some situations. That's the point.

In my decades as a secondary teacher and headteacher, I occasionally used to hear students say "If we have to wear school uniform, teachers should have to as well."

My answer was always "This IS my school uniform - do you think I dress like this when I'm not at work?" I do believe staff should have a professional dress/appearance code, mind. And that includes no visible tattoos.

What is the reasoning behind the skirt ban? They were wearing them too short? I never understood why it matters.

But it's true to say if the skirt ban is put in place, then teachers are turning up in very similar length/style skirts to those that were banned, it wouldn't set a great example. It could be disruptive and it does send mixed messages.

I always felt sorry for the male teachers as they seemed to be given a stricter dress code than the women. Either that or they were just massive sartorial failures. But I remember the men looking awful and the women looking often pretty decent.