What should I say to my 19 year old daughter who has already decided that she hates men?

[JMSA]

I don’t know, I guess it just saddens me that she holds this negative view of the world already. I received this text from her tonight:

I feel so enraged by the Epstein files. It is like documented proof men are evil. This is what men will do when they have power and think they will get away with it because that’s their nature. The poor woman and kids, it’s sick.

I’m fed up of saying ‘it’s not all men’.
She really hasn’t known many nice teenage boys. I daresay social media has heavily coloured her view too. I don’t want to dismiss her feelings but don’t want to encourage the notion that all men are evil!

Based on her personal life experience, plus the daily news, what other sane conclusion could she come to?

My daughter is pretty much the same way but now has a gay male friend.

Fair enough but 'it's not all men' feels dismissive, even if it's not intended to be.

You sound like my mum in 1985 OP. She was sad I (as a teen) had been taught all the different forms of contraception, and how to avoid getting AIDs.

She wanted me to live in a perfect world where everyone met their perfect partner at 18 and settled to have a whole brood of children by 20.

My school, more sensibly, had prepared me for the real world. Your dd is very sensibly seeing the world as it really is.

@JMSA I don't think you should be sad about this at all - I think you can be proud of having done a brilliant job at raising a smart and empathetic daughter who has enough gumption to call out shitty male behaviour for what it is! You've also clearly got a relationship with her that allows her to talk (vent!) freely to you, which is great. Opinions change as we go through life; she may not always feel so strongly. Or maybe she will, you know, if Andrew Tate ends up being president #48 or something 😬

(But also, I have been known to vent that men ain't shit, and I'm a lot older than her and also married to one. I like to tell him he's on indefinite probation 🤣)

OP can you ask her to think around her statement 'This is what men do when they have power'? Might it be reframed as: people who crave power are more likely to behave this way?

I mistrust men (and women) who want power. People who lust after power love controlling others - and they don't see others as human - just commodities. I mistrust people whose highest objective in life is to gain wealth or power. They lack fundamental aspects of humanity.

Tell her that men who seek power to that level tend to be more Machiavellian, narcisstic and sometimes psychopathic than the general population of men.

Agree @Strangerthanfictions

Individually, it is possible that some men can be nice.

But collectively they're a bit shit aren't they?

Are you kidding? You do realize how incredibly offensive that comment is?! RIGHT?!!!

Yeah. I like the analogy of the poisoned sweets to counter the "It's not all mean" idea.

Here's a box of sweets
Some of them are poisoned but not all of them, some of them are fine.
But would you eat one out of the box?

Good on her!

My DS (10) has been asking about Epstein, and I’ve told him that there are some very evil men in this world. That’s why it’s so important that he’s good and kind and looks out for other people

We can’t justify the evil in this world. But we can acknowledge it and guide them on how to behave and why it’s so important to just be decent. Perhaps that starts with the ability to recognise the bad in the world?

BTW does she have any nice male relatives - grandad/brother/uncle etc? I know you said her dad cheated which is awful.

It's not men perse, it's the absolutely filthy rich people. They're greedy, they always want more and more. Men are more likely to be sexual predators of course.

Please explain? Without screaming at me.

Like your mum in the 80s, my fat arse 😂
What a strange and unfair assumption of me to have come to.

Yesterday I watched the 6 o’clock news followed by the local Scottish news and here are some of the stories I heard: Epstein files; Steven Wright pleading guilty to his 6th murder of a woman (Victoria Hall); the son of Norway’s Crown Princess being charged with multiple offences against women including rape; men making money from YouTube by filming women out at night without consent; the delay in the inquiry into the bundled police investigation into the murder of Emma Caldwell; the story of a man convicted of multiple rapes, domestic abuse and coercive control against 4 separate women. It was a lot to take, and I thought if I was young and hadn’t also known the many wonderful men in my life I’d be thinking why would you ever choose to get close to a man ever?!

I agree that it is highly depressing. Unbelievably so.

This!

I would ask her what she thinks of Sarah Mountbattwn Windsor/Ferguson

Tell her that the world is a shit place and there's lots of evil. That's life. There will be plenty more of these horrific cases in her lifetime. Maybe not with so much wealth and grandeur as Epstein, but there will be more.

Tell her not to dwell on what she can't control and just focus on living her best life. As a man, that's all I can do myself. If women want to think that I'm evil like Epstein or savile simply because of my gender, that's on them. It's a prejudiced and bigoted view point, so I actively avoid women who think like this.

You could point out that Epstein's right hand man was a woman. Ghislaine was his enabler, she was the one enticing girls into his web of sexual abuse. I suspect many of their victims would have ran a mile if it weren't for Ghislaine. Same was true with Fred and rose west, Huntley and Hindley - the men on their own wouldn't have lured women and children so easily if it weren't for their female accomplice.

Your daughter is right. No, not all men are Epstein but almost all benefit from the power structures that allowed Epstein to exist. I genuinely think almost all men are misogynistic, some just hide it better than others.

According to MN all women are saints who never, ever, put a foot wrong 🤔

She is right to feel enraged. I am enraged by the repugnant behaviour of so many men, and by society's willingness to turn a blind eye to that behaviour. Every woman on the fucking planet should be enraged.

I agree with other posters that you don't need to make the case that NAMALT. If she is lucky enough to meet any decent men, she will figure it out for herself.

I don't think you really need to say too much. She's processing some of the awful stuff going on in the world involving men. She will come to her own conclusion. I have to say by the time the news came out of an equivalent drug rapist in England to the one in France it made me think god how many more. I genuinely felt relief that I realised I was a lesbian later in my life and am married to a woman so don't have to worry what happen I my sleep. I'm know some nice kind men but sadly not many

Maybe you could at least try to understand WHY women feel the way they do and advocate against some of the misogyny that enables rape culture, DV etc. That's what good men should do and would help women feel safer and more supported. Sitting back and enjoying the benefits of the patriarchy doesn't help anyone, let alone men in the long run.

If only it was just the filthy rich ones then we could at least avoid them.

They're from all walks of life. The real common denominator is they're men.