Is this cheating, would you forgive this?

[Meg878o]

Husband was dismissed from work a month ago and has now been sacked following a full investigation. Reason being that he said sexually inappropriate words at work, derogatory jokes, he was in a team leader position, saying to his workmates that customers were 'fit' and had nice boobs etc, commenting on their bodies in general, telling female workmates that they're attractive and in good shape. Would appreciate any views on this?

I hate it when this sort of crap is dismissed as lads banter.
Last summer we went to a seaside resort cafe with a couple of my husbands mates.
The waitress who was only about 18 was very pretty/had a nice figure. The Leary comments coming out of these 50 year old men’s mouths were gross and I told them so.
They all seemed genuinely shocked at my disgust because to them it’s normal lad banter.
But to that teenage girl it’s probably another day where she had to spend her entire shift knowing men old enough to be her dad are trying to see her cleavage.
You’d think this sort of nonsense would have died out by now but it hasn’t, so well done to your boyfriends work place for taking it seriously.
To answer your post I don’t think it’s cheating and I wouldn’t feel betrayed I just wouldn’t want to share a life with a man who behaved in this way.

Is that all you’re concerned about?

Why will they never know the details? You’re taking a bullet for him to the point where it will affect the relationship you have with your kids? Tell them EXACTLY why you’ve ended it in an age appropriate way. If they’re teens I wouldn’t sugar coat it at all. Your sons need to know this is gross behaviour and your daughters need to know it’s never acceptable to be treated like this.
I honestly can’t believe you’re STILL hand wringing over this and posting on mn. At this point I honestly think you want someone to tell you his behaviour is ok to justify staying with him. I can’t think of any other reason you’re repeatedly posting the same thread. Baffling.

Yeah, that is unacceptable. We have come a long way since I was a teen in terms of people’s bodily autonomy. We don’t touch people without their consent and certainly not strangers. (Obviously romantic couples will have their own agreed boundaries).

Will get flamed here BUT

Your feelings are of course valid OP, he's hardly covered himself in glory and his behaviour isn't okay.

That said, I think there is a difference between if someone felt threatened or assaulted by him, or if he was just being sleazy and someone took offence. If the latter, I'm not saying it's okay, but honestly imo there are worse things. I think lots of men make these sorts of comments with their friends, and your husband has been unlucky / stupid in saying it to the wrong person. The women in my office objectify men all the time too, so I don't think it's exclusively men, but human nature to a certain extent. One of the baser parts.

He has certainly been disrespectful of you by being openly lecherous (although again, I doubt these sorts of comments are that uncommon between friends), but no, he hasn't cheated.

I think a big part of how I reacted, would be down to his reaction. Sorry though, the whole thing sounds really bleak and unnecessary.

It sounds like he has been dismissed for sexual harassment. Why would you stay with him?

Not cheating but I would give him a slap and tell him to grow up.

How would he feel if you were out and suddenly bit your lip and said 'phwoar, look at the arse on that, mm' or told his best mate he was looking really fit and felt his muscly arm.

Does it matter how he sees it?! It's how you see it that matters. Disgusting pervert that he is how can you even think about staying with him! He's been sacked for his behaviour.

Personally, I think it's worse than cheating. There are lots of reasons a person might cheat (it's not as black and white as many on MN like to pretend) but this behaviour, and his excuses for it, demonstrate that he's a fundamentally unacceptable person.

Putting cheating on such a high pedestal just leads to questions like the OP's, and excuses like her husband's. Instead of looking at the actual issue - that this man is an entitled, raging misogynist - they are nitpicking over the precise definition of infidelity. It's not relevant.

The only possibility of staying with this sleazebag would be if he took responsibility for his behaviour and was determined to change. That hasn’t happened so no, I wouldn’t forgive him. Him being forgiven by you would mean understanding what he did that was wrong and fully acknowledging the harm he did to his female work colleagues.

It’s time to accept that this is who he is and who he will always be.

You've posted about this multiple times now.

Your husband is vile. He's a misogynist lech who makes women feel uncomfortable and is also fucking stupid, because he should have been well aware that his behaviour would get him sacked.

You've also missed out a detail that you included in your previous posts, which was that he was overly touchy-feely with a much, much younger female colleague.

Either leave him or don't, but repeatedly posting on Mumsnet asking whether being a pervy old creep to younger women at work counts as 'cheating' is a waste of your time. Decide for yourself whether you want to live with a horrible man or not, it's up to you.

Of course it’s not cheating! The use of inappropriate language, making jokes etc may well be grounds for dismissal, but I don’t understand how that could be classed as cheating.

It doesn’t matter if HE thinks he hasn’t done anything wrong and it’s just “banter”. YOU feel betrayed and disgusted (quite rightly) by what he’s done - that’s what’s relevant.

He sounds awful. Ask him how he'd feel if someone talked about his daughter like that.

OP, you don’t need permission to find this unacceptable, and there is no official index or tick box scale that makes something a deal breaker in your marriage or not.

And certainly not any definition or threshold as decided by your H.

YOUR thoughts and feelings are what count.

He is a disgusting sexist perve. And he has let his family down very badly by losing his job and income.

’Lads banter’ is not an acceptable defence, and how on earth could it be possible in a mixed environment? ‘Tactile’ … have you seen the testimony? And would anyone be happy to know that as a customer your H was Leering at them and assessing their bodies ? Maybe he did it to your friends. Your friends’ daughters.

And the fact that he is doubling down and blaming others is despicable.

Personally I couldn’t be in the house with him.

I am very sorry you have found yourself in this position, and sorry for your children. But you can manage in your own and with care your children will be ok.

Whatever he thinks in his own head and own time is up to him but not an attitude to be displayed or voiced in public.
It’s up to you whether you can move forward together knowing what he thinks.

Many on here are quick to say chuck in the towel on relationships. But would they?

Has he otherwise been a decent dad and DH?
Have you noticed his inappropriate attitude in front of the children?
Has his character changed recently.
Could he be mentally unwell?

Could a hard line be that he seeks counselling or you end the marriage?
All the best OP 💐

Lots of posters on here very keen to end a strangers' marriage. Take a look at yourselves Little Miss Perfects. You're not very nice people, who don't say very nice things too.
This sounds like something from the 1960s, when this behaviour was normal. Depending on his age, he should have been taught appropriate behaviour in PSHE at school. Not sure if workplaces have appropriate behaviour training. I think Adults are expected to know how to behave.
This behaviour was also an abuse of power. He was a manager, several years older than the young girl who complained.
This can't have been his first offence at work. He should have had verbal warnings and several written warnings before dismissal.
Is he a good dad? Were you happy before this incident?
A lot of posters on mn are very drippy women, don't be one of them. Assert your authority. Sit him down and give him a stern talking to. Lay down the law. Tell him to get another job, not an easy thing to do. Tell him his behaviour has got to improve, or else. Tell him male chauvinist pigs became extinct in the 1970s. He's got to get into the 2020s. (Surely a male friend should have told him all this before now).
Consider counselling. This is a 2 way street, you both take part. You both need to discuss why he behaves like this and the effect it is having on your marriage and family.
If none of this works then it is time to end your relationship.

Sadly you'll be teaching them that this behaviour is acceptable if you stay. Would he try therapy?
You're in a difficult position through no fault of your own, I do sympathise. But what he has done will never be ok, esp as he is in denial. How will he ever improve if he doesn't think he did anything wrong, despite losing his job over it?

I don't think its cheating. I did bar work in the nineties and it was a very different world to the one we live in now, and I do think a lot of men especially have been "left behind", its a shame no-one in his workplace stepped in informally before it got to this, and suggested he modernise his approach to communication (for want of a better phrase).

Honestly, I have to consciously check my behaviour, it feels natural to me to be more tactile than say, to my Gen Z kids who would absolutely not touch another person in conversation.

I suspect I will be flamed but I do think the world you grew up in is so very different if you are 20, 40 or 60 now the workplace can be an absolute minefield.

I dont know why your obsessing over whether this is cheating? That's irrelevant.

When I first started my career 30 years ago, yes this sort of thing was part & parcel and generally accepted, but rightly so, times have changed. This behaviour is not acceptable now, nor should it be.

I work in a very male dominated environment, following a restructure I had a new direct report and when we were out at lunch one day, this young woman disclosed inappropriate behaviour from her former line manger.
Sounds very similar to this, sexist comments, overly familiar, 'tactile' etc.
We went through disciplinary, he denied any wrong doing, citing 'its just the way he is', 'he's always been like this', 'its her fault for taking offence'. It caused quite a rift in the team with the old guard saying that's just 'John', he's always been a bit pervy.
Rightly so, the business took it seriously, too many instances for a warning so were going to sack him, but he resigned first.

For your husband to be sacked there must have been a pattern of behaviour, more than one incident.

I find it hard to believe hes not like this outside of work, if he's not then that would indicate he knows its wrong, which makes it worse.
If you're still struggling, think of your daughter and how would you feel if this happened to her at work?

To the poster inferring he was unlucky enough to say it to the 'wrong person', shame on you. That kind of attitude is why this behaviour is still happening

What a revolting piece of shit you are married to OP. He probably talks about you in that manner to his mates too.
Like a slab of meat.

He has put your family's income at risk. In 15 years this won't be the first woman he's harassed. He is refusing to take responsibility and he's risking his family life.

This is on him.

Ultimately it's your decision, but your gut is telling you what you need to know. I'm so sorry he has done this to you and your family.

Cheating or not cheating.

Who cares? Your husband is a sex pest.

Up to you whether or not you want to be married to one.

Much worse than cheating.

Well my dh wouldn’t do that. So if he did that he then wouldn’t be the person I know, if that makes sense? It would be over for me.