To allow my DD to follow her ridiculous "life plan"

[14HoursToSaveTheEarth]

This is not really an AIBU. I'm asking for advice/views. Long post so sorry.

My DD (16) is a number of things including confident and articulate. This may sound harsh but she is also in many ways immature and gullible, and very, very lazy. She left secondary school without a single GCSE of any grade and to be honest I think it is safe to say that this will continue and she will leave all education without any qualifications. Importantly, she does not care. She lives a privileged life in a seven bedroom house where she wants for nothing, but her attitude is that work is for fools and she plans to live off the government until she gets married and they look after her. You have no idea how long we have spent trying to dispel this fantasy and educate her as to how life will be in the real world if she doesn't change her attitude but she thinks we made our life choices (like going to university, gaining multiple degrees and working long hours at good jobs to provide her with this life) and she will make hers.

So she now has a "friend" who she met online via other friends who has had a hard time in life. She is also 16 but she cannot live at home due to her family circumstances, so he has a flat paid for by the local authority (according to DD). This friend has it sounds serious mental health issues, is a self-harmer and has attempted suicide several times, and recently had a miscarriage. I do not think it was her first pregnancy. The friend lives in East London. We live in the countryside several hours from London.

DD and her friend have now hatched a master plan whereby when they turn 18 DD will move in with her friend in London and they will both live off of benefits and never have to work, or at most they will get a job at MacDonalds.They think that this is them beating the system and they laugh at people planning to go to university and get jobs.

I could write this off as a teenage fantasy, which it probably is, but I constantly see threads on MN about young women who are living the life she describes and it makes me despair that this plan may become a reality. I don't even know what to do if we cannot talk her out of it. Do we drive her to London and try to be "supportive" (though I would not give her money other than in an emergency) in order to still be part of her life when it all goes wrong, or do we say "fine, make your choices but stand on your own two feet then" and see her sink possibly out of our lives forever?

DD also has two younger siblings who idolise her and I really worry about the message this sends to them, if she messages them about her amazing life in London sticking a finger up at everything we are trying to get them to work towards.

For full disclosure, as I don't want to be accused of drip-feeding, my DD was adopted at age three.

I know this will probably all come to nothing but it horrifies me when I hear her planning for a future that I know will be so bleak when for so many years we had such high hopes for her future. She has tried vaping and tried alcohol at a party but she hated both, so does not drink or smoke, has never tried drugs and is a virgin. However, she is incredibly stubborn and I have seen her turn viciously on people, including teachers, who do not allow her to have her own way (though thankfully this is not often), and so I can see her following through on this ridiculous plan out of sheer willfulness.

Before anyone asks, DH and I are fully on the same page on this issue. We are both equally horrified at her so-called plans but at a loss as to how to curtail them when she listens to everything we say and then simply says that she has her own mind and when she is 18 we cannot stop her. And she is right.

Beside this ridiculous plan and a general laziness with respect to anything concerning study, she is actually a pretty good kid most days (the moments of stubbornness I mentioned above are momentous but rare), so I have no reason to do anything to punish her. She is allowed to have friends and crazy ideas.

So please MN, your views:

Am I being UNREASONABLE and should let her spread her wings and move in with an unstable friend and live a life that horrifies me, putting her safety at risk in the hope that she sees sense and comes home, or

am I being REASONABLE and should do everything to prevent her from moving in with her friend when she is 18, even if that drives a wedge between us, hoping that she eventually understands this is for her benefit?

or should we do something else entirely?

A therapist is a good plan but also speaking of someone who went through some pretty wobbly times as a teen and in my 20s it can also be hugely beneficial to plan and activity or trip that gets her out of her own head. Somewhere that takes her away from normal life and gives her a broader perspective..

It could be just a lovely holiday somewhere that helps remind her of all the different lives there are that we can choose to live. For me it was sail training that open my eyes to so many different perspectives on the world and on myself too. Similarly I agree that volunteering or work or just spending time with different people can be hugely beneficial. My parents lined up various of their wisest friends to just pop over and have a chat with me or found ways for me to go and have a chat with them and this was so helpful for just letting me filter through a whole range of different perspectives. They did it carefully so I didn't really realize what was happening but looking back I just started to feel surrounded by a community of wise people with life experience. Trusted teachers or youth workers can have a similar impact

She needs to meet inspirational young women who are just a few years older than her and have not much in common with you, her parents. I totally understand your fear but she is rebelling against the posh world. Get her into martial arts (discipline is very important - they will teach her) and is a good outlet. Volunteering with animals? Could be a nice way to introduce some caring responsibilities. Do you know someone who was a dropout and started a cool profitable business? Could be in the trades. Lots of successful people haven’t gone to uni. Nothing wrong with it. If she really wants to live in a shit flat off benefits, let her. She will return at some point. I was this kid somewhat. School was a nightmare, I had bad boyfriends, moved out when I was 16. Hated my parents. I now own my own house, have a 6 figure job, have granny type hobbies, 2 uni degrees. I just had to get the shit out of my system, and then learned there was more to life than doing dumb shit. Most important thing is she needs to know you lover her not matter what, and that her not wanting uni is ok. If you don’t make her feel heard, she might act out more & disappear

Something else I remember you saying DD had said was "you don't know how I feel". I remember hearing those exact words and that was a turning point. I always thought I had a pretty good idea how she felt but in that moment I just said "tell me how you feel in whatever words and I'll help in any way I can". It's heartbreaking to hear the depths of trauma, how things seem through their eyes and what they're carrying. In my day you just bottled it all up and buried it but it gets you nowhere.

There's a lot of expectation on young people today. When I was 16, 18 & 21 they were just special birthdays but now they're goalposts for responsibility and pressure that most young people aren't ready for.

Also this. We lined up all the caring, broad-minded sensible family elders who hadn't had any run ins, so they could be the "cool" auntie. They casually made contact and maintained it. We also managed to maintain contact via the school, although it was very stressful for them, as obviously we were frantic at the outset.

She needs to know she is loved but there are responsibilities of her as a young adult.

1. What do her friends think of this plan?

2.Are any of her friends going to university, ask her to go with them to visit the campus. Get her to counselling to ask where she sees herself in 2, 5 10 years time.

Stop paying for everything now. After school she has to apply herself to getting a saturday or evening job (if she is not doing homework) to pay for her food, rent, clothes, travel, phone. Laptop etc
Say that she has to volunteer in a homeless shelter, charity shop etc
Have a wall chart for how much everything she uses costs against any benefit she will receive.
Start looking with her now for a bedsit for her In the summer holidays to rent go to viewings & make her go to the job centre to find out about her job prospects and what she will be expected to do for her dole.
Hopefully, this level of financial responsibility and the meagre/poverty of existing will be a wake up call.

Make it clear that you love her but will only support her if she is in school/college.
Obvs. You would support your DD through anything but this is tough love and an intro into the real world outside a 7 bedroom house.

Agree with this. No GCSEs at all speaks volumes and must be causing a lot of pressure from teachers and a certain reputation and comments with her peers.

There may be fear of failure, shame, self esteem issues, despair at how far behind she has let herself get, a lack of hope or ability to focus and try anymore, beneath all the bravado and snarky pretending not to care.

She won't be able to come back from this, in terms of her prospects, or mental health, without support. She will likely have learning support needs from years of under practiced core skills. Being privileged financially at home has not protected her from ending up with the worst educational outcome possible of any adopted or looked after children in the UK - and I'm sure you tried. This and her choice of friend (who can't look down on her lack of ambition and has also known trauma) does suggest issues that need therapy.

Specialist help is the way to go. Forgive her for being a short sighted, gullible, immature teen. This patently unrealistic McDonald's and benefits plan is probably half a fantasy to protect herself and half something she says because she can see it angers you and makes you hurt like she's hurting. My DS, who had issues in formal education, threatened in his teen rage phase to join the army, become homeless, or, the best one 'move to the forest and use his survival skills to fish, hunt and pick fruit' rather than continue at school or college. None of which plans he would have survived long at. He is now fine, qualified as a personal trainer and earning his own money.

It won't be hard to show her the numbers don't add up. Her friend, if she is in local authority accommodation, will struggle to support herself after 18, let alone a second mouth to feed - look up articles on care leavers. This can lead to paths to earn extra money that are dangerous for vulnerable young women.

If she gets no GCSEs through her own actions, its a form of self sabotage and a cry for help. Hopefully you can look past the teen bluster and get her that help.

The “plan” to me sounds like rejecting life before it can reject her, being afraid to try (like the test) - but it’s being dressed up and presented with bravado to you.

I really agree with this.
I have 3 kids, aged 18-23
Honestly they all hated school at 16. GCSEs were tough, they were ready for something else, they didn't like having to conform to school rules etc while thinking they were now nearly grown-up. I can remember in my first year of A levels telling my mum I was going to leave school and gte a job, at least then I would have some money and wouldn't have to do any more studying. She convinced me to hang on a bit longer.
I think it is a tough age, and if you have failed GCSE, then the future is actually terrifying, because schools drum it in to you that you need qualifications and without them you will fail at life.

All mine grew enormously between 16 and 18. They went from teens to young adults. My youngest is AuDHD and has struggled enormously, but even so, has grown up dramatically in the last 2 years.

I agree with those saying get her help, but I would also suggest helping her get a part time job, not for the money, for the experience, the independance, the mixing with other people outside school.

A lot can happen/change in 2 years so try not to get to caught up too much in it all now. However, saying that you could maybe start to prepare her for the real world by sitting her down & explain what she'd be expected to pay even if she's on benefits. Do a bit of research in to roughly how much she would get each month claiming benefits then do a spreadsheet with her of her expected income & outgoings. Let her know that while it may be possible to survive on benefits she won't have the freedom & life she'd have if she worked & won't be able to save for things like holidays or cars etc & won't have a pension for later in life.
I remember when my DD was 16 her & her friend were discussing life after college. They wanted to buy a 4 bed house, a double bedroom each with en-suite in both & a dressing room each, a double garage for their cars, & large garden for the Summer house/bar with a big patio for them to have friends round & only pay £500 a month between them for it all. I laughed & encouraged them to find a life like that for me too. Fast forward & DD left school went to Uni, has a Degree & is going back in Sept for her Masters & is training to be a physio. She might get her dream after all but has realised she needs to work for it.

I think the important information is the fact that your daughter is adopted. Speaking from personal experience, we have had similar difficulties with lack of reality. Our daughter struggles with cause and effect and lives in a fantasy world. Support is hard to come by and we have really struggled. Its really tricky as it seems that until reality really hits them, they just don't get it. Unfortunately, if you help finance these unrealistic dreams, you will be enabling her. Wishing you lots of strength for the future.

After a week or probably less of working at McDonalds, she will decide that going to school wasn't so bad after all.
So tell her, if that's the life she's going to live, she might as well get on and do it.

16 is a child.

For an adopted child perhaps especially, or at least that's how it feels.

What kind of therapy has she had so far?

I have read a lot of the tough love responses here and I totally agree with those parents who say that this approach rarely works for adopted children. It is totally understandable that many parents are looking at the problem from their pespective and would not accept this behaviour from their child.
However, most adopted children have both attachment and unresolved trauma, which will impact their every decision and outlook on life. I suggest joining a support group for adoptive parents so that you can get advice from people who have experience of this kind of behaviour. Please also be kind to yourself because living with a traumatised child, especially if they also have attachment disorder is very tough.

My adopoted GD is now 10 and clearly showing signs of difficult behaviour, with more to come no doubt. My DD accepts advice and has had therapy for her from the Adoption people and her social worker, and has taken all the training that is available (she is also a foster carer). DD is exceptionally patient.
They're well aware that trauma and other problems from her early childhood will affect her for many years to come but it is hard to modify her behaviour which is already causing problems. Fortunately her primary school is very understanding, I think that most accept that "tough love" solutions are unlikely to work with her.
I hope that her secondary school will be as understanding, and her fellow pupils.

I know of quite a few children this sort of age and into their twenties who are rejecting the 'rules' that we are all meant to live by - study hard, get qualifications, get a job, work hard etc. From their perspective, all the grown ups are working so hard it doesn't look like too much fun. These kids somehow make do with casual work, living at home. I have some sympathy.

The thing is to find the thing that makes you want to work hard and strive for something. 16 is still very young and it may take a few years for this thing to make itself apparent. Hopefully then she will go for it and do whatever it takes (resits etc) to make it happen.

So I suppose what I am saying is, take the long view here. She may not listen to what you have to say right now, but she will probably get there in the end.

My sister is manager at mcdonalds, there are so many people looking for any job they can be very fussy about who they take. Your DD wouldn't get a look in

Fellow adopter here. Please ignore the tough love crowd. They have no understanding of epigenetics, genetics, pre-natal trauma, the primal wound of being removed from the human being who grew them for nine months, plus, no doubt, the exposure to the toxic trio of alcohol, drugs and domestic violence. You also need to factor in the very high heritability factors of neurodivergences and mental health disorders. It’s nigh on impossible for sharp-elbowed middle-class parents to secure EHCPs; pity the parents living in domestic abuse and chaotic situations. It’s no wonder our birth parents self-medicate with drugs and alcohol.

A few questions: does your AD have an EHCP? If so, she will be supported in education until she is 25. Forget chronological age, you and I both know that we may as well half that, and then knock off a few more, to work out our children’s functioning ages.

We give our children the best experiences and foundations we can but the pull of genetics is very strong. My AD1(just 18) passed the 11+ for a super-selective grammar school and was predicted 10 grade 7-9 GCSEs. She has left school with two GCSEs and is currently not in education or training. She started self-harming before Christmas so I take it as a win that I kept my AD alive and out of the youth justice system till she was 18. We walk different paths to our non-adopter friends but that isn’t to say that we have failed.

Thank you. You sound like an amazing parent. 🙏🏻

No I’m really not. Children’s services in my area thought I was a terrible parent and put me through a s.47 Child Protection investigation. Mainly because the front-line social workers don’t understand adoption, trauma and attachment and it’s far easier to blame and shame the adopters than fund any actual services. I am the only constant in my AD’s life. Despite the fact that she has stolen anything of any value from my house, is violent, aggressive and abusive and she made a false allegation against me that saw me arrested and detained in custody for 21 hours. I still continue to show up for her. I’m not sure that that is the measure of a good parent by MN standards?

It’s brilliant parenting by my standards 💐

I can’t comment on the adoptive aspect as I have no experience at all - I’ll leave that to the MNetters that do. However main stream education doesn’t fit well with some children. My son hated it, can not stand authority figures and basically refused to do the work. At 16 we looked at the local colleges for him to do functional maths/English and follow on courses. He absolutely refused to enroll. I gave him a choice - get a full time job or go to college. He got a job (not an apprenticeship). The local authority kept in regular contact with me. They were aware that he was not continuing with maths & English and had no problem with this at all, as long as he was well and being productive. He is 19 now and is still in full time work in a job that he enjoys.

I have an adopted DS son who suffered from the blank page syndrome - teachers explained to me that it is to do with fear of being judged. The idea in the child's mind is that if you write nothing then you can't get a bad mark. It was all part of his lack of self worth which was all part of the abandonment syndrome which we only learned about recently when he talked to us about it at age 43. He came to us aged 13 months. We lived in Africa - before the internet - and we knew nothing at all about babies nor about adopted kids. All his life everyone thought he was stupid but he was slightly dyslexic but we never knew. He passed away last year (cancer( and all this came out during his illness when he was bed ridden.