To allow my DD to follow her ridiculous "life plan"

[14HoursToSaveTheEarth]

This is not really an AIBU. I'm asking for advice/views. Long post so sorry.

My DD (16) is a number of things including confident and articulate. This may sound harsh but she is also in many ways immature and gullible, and very, very lazy. She left secondary school without a single GCSE of any grade and to be honest I think it is safe to say that this will continue and she will leave all education without any qualifications. Importantly, she does not care. She lives a privileged life in a seven bedroom house where she wants for nothing, but her attitude is that work is for fools and she plans to live off the government until she gets married and they look after her. You have no idea how long we have spent trying to dispel this fantasy and educate her as to how life will be in the real world if she doesn't change her attitude but she thinks we made our life choices (like going to university, gaining multiple degrees and working long hours at good jobs to provide her with this life) and she will make hers.

So she now has a "friend" who she met online via other friends who has had a hard time in life. She is also 16 but she cannot live at home due to her family circumstances, so he has a flat paid for by the local authority (according to DD). This friend has it sounds serious mental health issues, is a self-harmer and has attempted suicide several times, and recently had a miscarriage. I do not think it was her first pregnancy. The friend lives in East London. We live in the countryside several hours from London.

DD and her friend have now hatched a master plan whereby when they turn 18 DD will move in with her friend in London and they will both live off of benefits and never have to work, or at most they will get a job at MacDonalds.They think that this is them beating the system and they laugh at people planning to go to university and get jobs.

I could write this off as a teenage fantasy, which it probably is, but I constantly see threads on MN about young women who are living the life she describes and it makes me despair that this plan may become a reality. I don't even know what to do if we cannot talk her out of it. Do we drive her to London and try to be "supportive" (though I would not give her money other than in an emergency) in order to still be part of her life when it all goes wrong, or do we say "fine, make your choices but stand on your own two feet then" and see her sink possibly out of our lives forever?

DD also has two younger siblings who idolise her and I really worry about the message this sends to them, if she messages them about her amazing life in London sticking a finger up at everything we are trying to get them to work towards.

For full disclosure, as I don't want to be accused of drip-feeding, my DD was adopted at age three.

I know this will probably all come to nothing but it horrifies me when I hear her planning for a future that I know will be so bleak when for so many years we had such high hopes for her future. She has tried vaping and tried alcohol at a party but she hated both, so does not drink or smoke, has never tried drugs and is a virgin. However, she is incredibly stubborn and I have seen her turn viciously on people, including teachers, who do not allow her to have her own way (though thankfully this is not often), and so I can see her following through on this ridiculous plan out of sheer willfulness.

Before anyone asks, DH and I are fully on the same page on this issue. We are both equally horrified at her so-called plans but at a loss as to how to curtail them when she listens to everything we say and then simply says that she has her own mind and when she is 18 we cannot stop her. And she is right.

Beside this ridiculous plan and a general laziness with respect to anything concerning study, she is actually a pretty good kid most days (the moments of stubbornness I mentioned above are momentous but rare), so I have no reason to do anything to punish her. She is allowed to have friends and crazy ideas.

So please MN, your views:

Am I being UNREASONABLE and should let her spread her wings and move in with an unstable friend and live a life that horrifies me, putting her safety at risk in the hope that she sees sense and comes home, or

am I being REASONABLE and should do everything to prevent her from moving in with her friend when she is 18, even if that drives a wedge between us, hoping that she eventually understands this is for her benefit?

or should we do something else entirely?

Could you perhaps give her £300 for a month and say this is what you will get. Say you and you're husband will not provide food, spending money etc, however much her contract is take that out also, if she would like to go out she pays. Anything involving money will come out if her pocket. Sounds harsh but needed.

Has she ever actually met the girl in the east end of London? Maybe you should bring her down for a visit to see a) how true her story is and b) how hard it is in comparison to her own life.

Also, consider trying to get her into an expensive passion which she’ll need to fund independently when she is of age - that could be a motivator! Go on a few ski holidays

Driving lessons often help to turn things around.

This is such a wise, kind post.

The op has said nothing about their lifestyle other than they live in a large, comfortable house. I know people who live in large houses but also live quite frugally either by circumstance or choice..
We don't know what sort of school she goes to, to be allowed to fail and it doesn't sound like anything has been spent on measures to try to stop her from failing the main subjects.
We don't know that they have £300 per month to hand out like that.

Op have you done things to broaden her world? Holidays? City breaks etc?

Have you walked her through the benefits she will be entitled to? Aka… Jobseekers and only if she searches for jobs for X hours a week? She will not get things like PIP as her friend likely does

We don't know what sort of school she goes to, to be allowed to fail and it doesn't sound like anything has been spent on measures to try to stop her from failing the main subjects.

I think I sounded judgemental here. I've had a child who wouldn't have engaged with a tutor so we just had to let it slide.
But equally the op's finances may not have stretched to tutors.

Another pp commented that a lazy child would get 6 and 7s rather than 8's. Not necessarily if they have been streamed into sets that only teaches foundation level and doesn't have a lot of ambition for the children who are not in higher sets.

Handing in a blank page is really important. I would look at exploring this further with a professional. She would rather hand in a blank sheet and get 0 and be able to say well of course I got 0 I didn't answer any questions than get 0 because she tried and got them wrong? If this is the case it really screams of things like low self esteem/self worth, a fear of failure so deliberately failing, anxiety, testing boundaries, testing relationships and so on. To me this is a really strong statement about her psychological wellbeing at the moment.

I know a couple of people who have struggled with the transition from school to work where they have had less than typical paths. There is absolutely time for her to find her own way if she gets a glimpse into reality with compassion.

The first experience a lot of bullying as she was a menopausal baby and had parents much older than other parents. Her goal was get a boyfriend, have a baby (or two) get a council house and never work. She had people around her living that life and felt it was a good option. She would last in jobs for hours before walking out. She met a guy, got married and had baby 1 at 17-18 and dropped out of college that she was barely attending. She discovered that babies are hard work, even harder when baby 2 arrived a year later. She started working as a bar maid /waitress, 10 years later her and her husband were running pubs together. They celebrate their 25th wedding anniversary recently and she hasn't been out of work in 20 years.

The other suffered a lot of ill health and couldn't attend college and dropped out. Handful of decent GCSEs but couldn't see a life outside of part time work. She was jaded with life and didn't see what benefit courses would give her and whether she could manage them at all as she couldn't manage college. I sat her down and looked through 1 bedroom rentals on Rightmove and compared the prices of rent to the wage she was making. Seeing that it wouldn't even cover the rent never mind bills too. We then sat down and looked through courses and apprenticeships, we found a distance learning course and then we looked at entry level salaries for that profession. She could then start seeing that this would give her options and within a few years she could afford to live independently. She did started the course, after a year she got an entry level job. They supported her through her training and 5 years later she was more qualified, had rented her own flat and was looking to buy.

I would look at getting some appropriate psychological support and support in the collehe, does the college have mentors? During my degree I had one for my mental health disability and we met once a week to discuss what I needed to do and how my mental health was doing, different skills and resources available to me.

I would avoid telling her that her plan isn't going to work and that her friend is wrong, try to make it less of you Vs them. I would start with asking her to explain how it is going to work, what the process would be, how much she would get, what it would cover. I would get her more involved with finances and the costs of life - mobile contract, Netflix, lunches etc. Start looking at what various scenarios might look like - job adverts what qualifications are required what lifestyle might that afford, what steps would she need to get there.

Well, my DD1 (16), adopted at one year old, is in college without any qualifications. She’s in a specialist college for young people with additional needs (she has probable FASD and epilepsy, as well as traits of autism/ADHD). We’re still waiting for an ND assessment on the NHS, that was a private assessment organised by out post adoption services.

She’s doing some work experience but is also doing Maths and English as well. Not to GCSE level, as she’s a long way behind academically.

The plan is for her to do an entry level qualification in Animal Management next year at a regular college, whilst being supported by the specialist college she’s at now; she doesn’t need to qualifications to go there next September.

So it is possible to get into college without no qualifications. OTOH, DD1 does have an EHCP, I don’t know whether it would have been like that if she hadn’t been issued one. (We had to fight hard for this, though.)

You should have been able to access the post adoption services in your LA, OP. We’ve been in touch with them on and off since our DDs were aged 6 and 3. Sometimes they’ve been good, other times not at all, depending on the worker assigned. You really have to push hard to get the support you need.

Unfortunately, as your DD is 16 now, she will have to be willing to access support now. They do offer therapy, however, to work through issues relating to a child’s adoption adoption, which your DD might welcome, as well as life story work.

My children are adopted, now 21 and 24. I haven't read all your responses op but I also haven't come across any mention of interventions in the form of school support, mental health etc during her childhood which is wild to me. Both my children went to CAMHS - one from age 6 till 18, the other as a teen. We also had some support through our local authority post adoption service.

However I wouldn't say support is a magic bullet - the child needs to want to engage and take something from it. Youngest got a lot more out of her MH services than eldest and still attends therapy as an adult - but it's only recently that she sees that change has to come from herself. At 16 she was OK with it as she likes to offload but she wasn't mature enough to actually use it to think about what she wanted ftom it.

Eldest was diagnosed ADHD (she has some autistic traits too). She struggled academically due to difficulties in focusing, organising her ideas etc (lack of executive functioning skills). But her bigger issue at school was behavioural, lack of conforming to rules and social difficulties etc. We fought to keep her in school. She did get some GCSEs but none as passes, though eventually got English through a resit.

Unlike your dd she has never had any future plans of any sort, even now, other than social ones! She did a level 1 course at college after leaving school - could have done level 2 with her GCSE results but we decided to keep things light as she had zero confidence and we chose the subject for her. That didn't work out so we chose a different level 2 course for her the following year. She wasnt interested in either. She's not a passive personality by the way, quite strong minded, stubborn and knows what she likes/ dislikes. But we haven't been able to persuade her to take another course (eg hairdressing) as she has a negative view of education (for herself).

She has had jobs though - started in a shop (hated it), bar work in several pubs (got the sack from each eventually). But has now had the same job for 3 to 4 years and as it's shift work, recently added another job that basically involves sales. She lives at home and is quite happy to do so - looks after it and the pets when we go away).

We always knew things eould be hard for her and wondered if she'd ever hold down a job, make friends etc. But we have accepted who she is and she is doing better in many ways than we expected. She met up with her birth family at 18 - birth mother is very similar to her in a lot of ways, though she lives off benefits. Dd found her exasperating after the honeymoon period wore off and contact is now minimal. But I do believe inheritance plays a huge part in how we are as adults.

Sorry this is long but wanted to say at 16 your dd is very immature. Adopted children are generally young for their age due to their traumatic backgrounds. Imagine a 12 year old telling you what your dd has- - it's the same total lack of understanding what independent adult life might be like. You can't persuade her now. Take one step at a time. See if she can get a part time job so she sees how it feels to earn her own money. BTW of course she can work and also go to college - college isn't full time. My eldest didn't, there's no way she could have done so, but youngest has worked since 16 - her jobs were related to her college course. She left two of them in a moment of annoyance / anxiety, but has now been working solidly in her field for over 3 years. (We would have liked her to go to university as she has the qualifications, but she refused.)

Sorry to be mean, but how is she going to get a job when she has nothing to offer??

She can move out if she wishes, there is no law stopping her. However, see below.

• 16 or 17:
• You can leave home without parental consent, but your parents still have a duty to ensure you have accommodation. If you're homeless, local authorities must help with housing/money if you're a 'child in need' or vulnerable.
• 18+:
• You are legally an adult, can rent property, and have full rights to live independently.

I'm not adopted but I was a very rebellious teen and went down the path you are hoping your DD avoids.

Broadly speaking you have 2 options here, you either limit her freedom and restrict her life to hope she sees sense and falls in line. Or you give her just enough freedom to learn, with your support in the background, exactly what she's signing herself up for. I'm advocating for this option.

I think you should be completely supportive of your DDs plan and suggest some weekends when she can stay with her friend in London. Take her there, drop her off, even stay nearby in a hotel if necessary. Give her that freedom and let her reach her own conclusions. There are so many things that she takes for granted about her comfortable life - everything from a decent mattress, a warm bathroom, no mould round the windows. She needs to realise that she's not going to be swapping like for like. If you do these controlled freedom experiences when she is 16 I think it will be the wake up call she needs, rather than waiting until she's 18 and you have no authority to bring her home again.

@PoweredBySheerSpite I doubt they are personally giving me every penny I get but sure thanks OP for your 0.000001% contribution to my income.
Op is probably paying more to fund the politicians expenses than she is my benefits.

Your right im not focusing on the DD trauma because my eldest has more trauma than an average 16 year old but they are determined to succeed. So if my child from an underprivileged background and social status can do it a teenager with money at their fingertips should be able to do it since they have access to the best of the best in terms of tutors/experiences and opportunities that arent afforded to those of us who are in the 'poverty class'

I honestly think she will change her mind. There is a big difference between 16 and 18 year olds.
My experience with teenagers is the more you push back against them the more they are likely to dig their heels in just to be contrary.
Does she like animals? Could she volunteer at an animal charity to introduce her to different people and a work ethic? Does she go horse riding? Thinking stable hand or volunteering. Is there any activity she enjoys that you could take her to - art, fitness, sport, drama, singing, anything at all?

Having an interest might foster an ambition to do something that she wants to become good at and it sounds like she doesn’t feel like she’s good at anything so she doesn’t try.

Wow. Shes sixteen
Sixteen year old talk all sorts of shit. Let her find her way

She sounds burned out, and as if she is struggling a lot but doesn't have the life experience to articulate how. I wonder if she feels a disconnect between the level of privilege that she might be perceived to have, and her actual experiences as an adoptee. I had an extremely adverse early life and I don't really have the patience to hang out with people who genuinely don't understand why I'm not in professional job making £80k. I wonder if she feels too much pressure -- you sound like a lovely mum and have identified that your children aren't likely to attain what you and your OH have, but I wonder if she is struggling with self-confidence.

I have worked in McDonalds, and it's really not the worst place to work, but PPs have pointed out that the McDonalds issue is an aside. I would show her kindly the reality of what she is saying she wants -- take her to McDonalds in Barking, not as a "short sharp shock", but as a "shall we go and have a nosey, then?".

I'm sure this has been said, but growing up rurally as a teen can be really hard as well. Is there any scope for her to have driving lessons and get an old banger? That would open up her world a lot.

I know. The original poster is aware of that. My comment was in relation to the daughter’s plan to move in with one of her vulnerable friends’ accommodation being provided & paid for by the local authority (though luckily she decided to wait till she’s 18)

My DDs last foster daughter (17) clearly had SEN, she'd never been assessed for anything at all and had been in care all her life. DD pushed for assessments for over a year and it was found that she had an comprehension age of 10. No wonder that she had always struggled at school and had never passed anything at all. Her confidence was understandably at rock bottom. FAS may be a factor in her case, or some other problem caused during pregnancy, as she was taken into care at birth.
DD knows people who have adopted and fostered children who turned out to have severe problems, some of which had been suspected beforehand but not disclosed, and some of which could easily have been diagnosed had anybody from the Care teams taken the trouble to get to know the children. They are so keen to find homes for their foster children in particular that not everything is disclosed.

She probably expects council houses to be like her luxurious 7 bed home too. The realism of that will be enough for her to stay/come back home.
If she still wants to do it at 18, take her to view housing that she can afford on benefits alone!

What rubbish!
Sounds like she's spoilt. Used to doing whatever she wants! The real world is a lot harder. Nothing to do with adoption ! 🙄

It sounds like you are a great parent and trying to be really supportive, when I was 16 I just wanted to have kids but then I found something I was interested in. Is there anything she could do which would raise an interest, for an example get a dog look after pets, a new hobby. I think it's so tough when you really don't know what you want to do and therefore the easy thing is to say I can't do anything because if you try you might fail. It sounds like school was really tough for her, are there really small steps you can take to build her confidence that she could actually do something

Adopted and care-experienced children have usually endured things that are infinitely harder than "the real world".

I know of this fantasy as I know of another teen (now young person in their 20's) who is still trying to live this fantasy. I do not believe it is a short lived fantasy. I think it is the message that many teens are getting from social media etc. Particularly in the uk where there is a benefits system and a sub-culture of those who will avoid work. Even when I was a kid I recall peers at school from benefits families whos openly stated life plan was to have kids in order to live off the state and be provided with housing. They probably achieved that and did not see the purpose of education. that was before the age of social media where everything is distorted to look wonderful.

Back to the teen I know of - a friends child whos life plan was to be on benefits and not work (with the attitude of why should they when others do little and have a great life). This young person simply refused school as a teen, did not turn up to sit GCSE's and therefore left school with no qualification. Then was considered NEET (not in education, employment or training) age 18-19. Parents managed to get them a place in college which was a great opportunity for them, but they messed it up and dropped out fairly quickly, and age 19-20 were doing only fans to earn money, living off parents meagure income where help was provided financially. Now living in a house of multiple occupancy on benefits supplemented by only fans and financial help from parents. The life plan is to live off benefits and only fans until they meet someone rich to live off them. The point is that this young persons fantasy was not a phase, or stage, it has turned into a life pattern and the outcomes do not look good for the young person, who is still refusing to fit into the norms of society.

Your daughter could be part of this other girls fantasy - eg hoping to also be bankrolled by association with a friend whos family is well-off. I think you have the opportunity now to do some life lessons with your daughter and that you should prevent at all costs this fantasy becoming a way of life. Educate your daughter than benefits are subject to conditions, and subject to the government of the days political policies. Also that should we end up in a european war by 2029 as has been predicted that those on benefits who do not work or study would be put to work in the war effort. Do some voluntary work with her at a homeless shelter and hear some of their stories. It sounds like she has lived a sheltered life and therefore has no sense of how difficult life can be in reality. Maybe take her abroad to a third-world country to do some voluntary work and see what harsh lives others have - I would be shocked if this had no impact on her. Expose her to other realities of lives to get her out of her comfort zone bubble of privilege. Finally you could qualify your support of her - eg if she goes off to live a life on benefits that she is on her own financially - support her making her plan eg go through what the benefits actually amounts to in money, get her to look for a flat to work out the rent, get her to do an online shop to see the price of food and look up cost of bills for utilities - help her calculate out the realities of her plan. She will soon see that financially it will not work.

'nothing to do with adoption' is a ridiculous take.
Experiencing adoption is a huge deal.