To allow my DD to follow her ridiculous "life plan"

[14HoursToSaveTheEarth]

This is not really an AIBU. I'm asking for advice/views. Long post so sorry.

My DD (16) is a number of things including confident and articulate. This may sound harsh but she is also in many ways immature and gullible, and very, very lazy. She left secondary school without a single GCSE of any grade and to be honest I think it is safe to say that this will continue and she will leave all education without any qualifications. Importantly, she does not care. She lives a privileged life in a seven bedroom house where she wants for nothing, but her attitude is that work is for fools and she plans to live off the government until she gets married and they look after her. You have no idea how long we have spent trying to dispel this fantasy and educate her as to how life will be in the real world if she doesn't change her attitude but she thinks we made our life choices (like going to university, gaining multiple degrees and working long hours at good jobs to provide her with this life) and she will make hers.

So she now has a "friend" who she met online via other friends who has had a hard time in life. She is also 16 but she cannot live at home due to her family circumstances, so he has a flat paid for by the local authority (according to DD). This friend has it sounds serious mental health issues, is a self-harmer and has attempted suicide several times, and recently had a miscarriage. I do not think it was her first pregnancy. The friend lives in East London. We live in the countryside several hours from London.

DD and her friend have now hatched a master plan whereby when they turn 18 DD will move in with her friend in London and they will both live off of benefits and never have to work, or at most they will get a job at MacDonalds.They think that this is them beating the system and they laugh at people planning to go to university and get jobs.

I could write this off as a teenage fantasy, which it probably is, but I constantly see threads on MN about young women who are living the life she describes and it makes me despair that this plan may become a reality. I don't even know what to do if we cannot talk her out of it. Do we drive her to London and try to be "supportive" (though I would not give her money other than in an emergency) in order to still be part of her life when it all goes wrong, or do we say "fine, make your choices but stand on your own two feet then" and see her sink possibly out of our lives forever?

DD also has two younger siblings who idolise her and I really worry about the message this sends to them, if she messages them about her amazing life in London sticking a finger up at everything we are trying to get them to work towards.

For full disclosure, as I don't want to be accused of drip-feeding, my DD was adopted at age three.

I know this will probably all come to nothing but it horrifies me when I hear her planning for a future that I know will be so bleak when for so many years we had such high hopes for her future. She has tried vaping and tried alcohol at a party but she hated both, so does not drink or smoke, has never tried drugs and is a virgin. However, she is incredibly stubborn and I have seen her turn viciously on people, including teachers, who do not allow her to have her own way (though thankfully this is not often), and so I can see her following through on this ridiculous plan out of sheer willfulness.

Before anyone asks, DH and I are fully on the same page on this issue. We are both equally horrified at her so-called plans but at a loss as to how to curtail them when she listens to everything we say and then simply says that she has her own mind and when she is 18 we cannot stop her. And she is right.

Beside this ridiculous plan and a general laziness with respect to anything concerning study, she is actually a pretty good kid most days (the moments of stubbornness I mentioned above are momentous but rare), so I have no reason to do anything to punish her. She is allowed to have friends and crazy ideas.

So please MN, your views:

Am I being UNREASONABLE and should let her spread her wings and move in with an unstable friend and live a life that horrifies me, putting her safety at risk in the hope that she sees sense and comes home, or

am I being REASONABLE and should do everything to prevent her from moving in with her friend when she is 18, even if that drives a wedge between us, hoping that she eventually understands this is for her benefit?

or should we do something else entirely?

So what if she’s studying, at 16 I was studying and worked part time. This was non negotiable with my parents, to start earning my own pocket money. You need to be stricter. A good routine from working a few hours a week might do her good.

That girl needs some boundaries. I would kick her out of the house now unless she gets a job and pulls up her grades. You've spoilt her.

She definitely needs more boundaries/ routine and privileges need to be removed.
Threatening to kick her out of the house is stupid. She is a child. Needs love, attention, encouragement and boundaries/ rules.

Since your daughter is adopted it might help you to watch this eye opening lecture on you tube

I am wondering if she would be prepared to undergo therapy, though you may well have suggested that.

Her attitude suggests that she might be suffering from anxiety or has undiagnosed ND Issues. It's also feasible that she is rebelling against your parental shibboleths of good education, university, etc. Most teens rebel but you have the added difficulty of her adoption which adds another layer. She might tell herself 'my real parents would never...' and she might even feel that rejecting your aspirational hopes brings her closer to her 'real' background. I suggest you seek therapy for you, to give you the tools to cope. You can't control your daughter, but therapy could help you cope with her choices.

Here’s where our opinions differ.

You said these two things: she is very very lazy and left school without a single GCSE of any grade and you think she will leave all education without any qualifications, and she is actually a pretty good kid most days so I have no reason to punish her.

This makes zero sense to me, a lazy child intent on getting zero qualifications because they can’t be bothered would be punished every day in my household.

I would immediately start charging her rent so that she has to get a job, unless she goes back into full time education. If she refuses, she’d be rationed down to bread, salad and water. Zero pocket money, no phone, no internet access. She would be cut off from absolutely everything that makes her life convenient bar the minimum required to keep her physically safe and healthy. But that wouldn’t extent to things like gym membership for exercise or anything like that. Don’t want to work? Then you’re living in a prison camp until you leave.

Indeed

My DS was adopted at 3. He has no GCSEs at all and we weren't sure how he would fare in employment.

He is ND and does get PIP.

He had a very similar out look at that age. Roll on 7 years, he does have a job, been there 2 years, and does now see the benefit of working and having savings. He was very proud to buy himself a brand new iPhone at a stupid cost (we did point out other brands are available at a tenth of the cost), but he had saved for it, so we didn't argue with him.

I would agree that the fact she is adopted is a very big factor and the replies on here will not necessarily be appropriate.

And whatever else: stop giving her money. Stop.

That's harsh. Do you have any empathy with young people or mums asking for support with their children?

She was adopted at 3. She was damaged by those first 3 years. I actually have a friend with a similarly adopted daughter. She is several years older but she has now had a baby and is on benefits. It was all she wanted to do. It was not what her parents wanted for her but it may work for her (if not for the taxpayer). Who knows, perhaps she has finally found the unbreakable love she was looking for. I think she has also smoked a lot of cannabis in her time, don’t know about harder drugs, all while living at home.

I agree with PP that the adoption is incredibly relevant to this situation.

Separately, stubborn teenagers will say anything to win an argument. It doesn’t really help to try and argue them into submission. Nor does it help to ignore what they are saying.

I generally think, in difficult parenting situations, the main thing to do is to keep providing unconditional love and emotional support. But not financial or logistical support for plans that horrify you. Or not at least they’re a fait accompli at any rate.

Keep calm, the penny will drop and she will be the most successful mature student ever. Life has a painful way of teaching you you lesson and she is choosing the toughest route. Conserve your energy for when it goes pear shape. The relationship with her new found friend is unlikely to last and she will return to her roots and the values she's accustomed to.

I don't really think DD is doing anything to deserve punishment, the OP hasn't said that she's causing havoc at home or being abusive, she's not going missing and dossing with friends or being disrespectful to her family. I'm picking up that we have a loving mum who is concerned with her daughter's idea of a future and she needs some input from other mums who have maybe been through similar and what's the best way forward. Ultimately maybe mum wants to protect and guide her daughter however she can without overstepping.

I must admit I've found DD's teenage years challenging even though I was a teenager once a long time ago, and I was clueless, everything has changed beyond all recognition. She's never been any trouble, quite the opposite, but there aren't many who get through to adulthood without scars, she's no exception.

I don't think OP's DD deserves to be punished at all, especially given the likely impact of her background. She hasn't done anything wrong.

Well I can’t believe the similarity of this thread and feel that I must say this. For transparency I am male with a DW and two sons living at home (can I please be an honorary MN poster just this once ?) Anyway our youngest DS (21) is exactly the same as you describe your DD. He was a Covid school leaver and got poor assessed grades currently working 4 to 5 hours a week at Maccies and tops up his income with UC. Around 18 months ago he met his first girlfriend who is on full UC living in a fully paid for quite nice council flat and their plan is to live there together soon and live off the state “happy ever after” they are both good kids and have never been in any trouble and don’t go clubbing or hardly ever go out at all. My DW and I are having exactly the same discussions with them as you are with your DD and worry about him a great deal so just wanted to say you are not on your own. Good luck with it all and hope DD will be ok. x

I know a few adoptees and I know their stories. I worked with an academic for a short time who adopted twin girls - she found it really difficult, she was single. There were adopted twin girls in DDs year at school - they struggled behaviour-wise as they got older but now they're doing well. But equally I know of lots of teens who aren't adopted and they've struggled at school and with everyday life - it's all about who cares for them and what parents can do/are prepared to do to get them the help they need, but the individual has to want to accept the help if they're lucky enough to be offered it. Most aren't.

I'm not suggesting a threat. I'm suggesting a consequence. 16 is no longer a child. Better she learns now the reality of the adulthood she's intent on chasing. Adulting means doing things we don't neccesarily want to do because they nevertheless need to be done. It's not about taking away her safe space. It's about teaching her that life and relationships have mutual expectations.

OP I agree with the mental health nurse who posted. I think you need to get some really good professional help from a psychotherapist. It would also be worth you seeing someone about this issue too. In terms of study, you could look into whether she has ADHD (the signs and symptoms can be quite different in girls). But it may all be related to early trauma. I listened to a book called Mother Wound on Audible last year - it talks about the huge impact a rupture in the relationship between a baby or child and its mother can have on the rest of their life.

There probably do need to be boundaries and consequences - she needs to know she is safe with you and sometimes that means setting boundaries, rather than letting her go her own merry way which could feel very unsafe for her.

I hope you can help her come to a place where she has more value for herself. Wishing you all the very best in this very challenging situation.

She is only 16 and 2 years is a long time before her plan takes effect. It is very significant that you mention that she is adopted.

you need support from Post Adoption Centre.
you also need to take little steps with her.

paying minimum rent to stay in your house.

looking for a job near where she lives.

remember life is long and she is a teenager. Some of this is caused by fear.

I have adopted 2 children and she needs you to hold the boundaries lovingly.

rents are very expensive in London as is travel

Keep the doors open.

good luck

you need support around you at present as she does too.

Just to say, I agree. It might seem overly dramatic, but if I could go back to the two years before my daughter got groomed, I feel there was more I could have done. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but we made all kinds of mistakes that I feel could have made a difference if only we'd realised how dangerous the situation was.

In the end I got her a private counsellor to provide a neutral party for her to talk to. That way at least I knew there was a responsible adult involved somewhere who had influence over her. I wasn't involved at all, I left her to it. I sensed she needed a private, neutral advisor to help her navigate all the negativity she was feeling about us as her family. 😔 The guy grooming her had convinced her we were "toxic, controlling" parents. You'd laugh at that if you knew us. We're so laid back we're horizontal. But he was very good at this, and we were naive.

We're all reconciled now, but there was a lot of confusion, conflict and teenage angst that she needed to work through.

We had lots of similar themes. At one point she asked us to declare her officially homeless so she could "access" housing and benefits. I knew this guy was probably intending to move in, as it sounded like he had a track record of cuckooing into vulnerable women's homes. So I said we'd pay for her to get an independent rented flat. I also gave her the exact amount of money each week that she'd be entitled to, and said I didn't feel it was ethical for us to claim money which was better spent on others in genuine need. This seemed to land. I just didn't want her becoming part of this social circle of adults with severe mental health difficulties and substance abuse, whom she had met in adult mental health services and had found identification.

It was a gruelling and heartbreaking journey to safeguard her from spiralling into a life of benefit dependency. It sounds like you also have the financial resources to support her through this very difficult but essential time.

I had a friend at 15 like your DD has who I was incredibly close to, I have no sisters and for me she was like my sister. I felt a duty to help her and be there for her, she used to make me feel bad that I went on holidays with my family, went to a private school, had a monthly allowance etc so in turn I started to feel ashamed of having a middle class background and aspired to be 'cool' and working class like her. We used to fantasise about running away to London too, living together etc but that all stopped when she got pregnant had her daughter at age 16 and we drifted apart. This was in the space of a year and a half so so much can change quickly in the teenage world. I didn't go to university as im neurodivergent and dyscalculic, to be honest i never felt like i was clever enough or good enough for uni but I did stick with college and I have GCSEs and 2 BTECs which have been my saving grace job wise. Most of my 'growth' educational and psychological was between the ages of 18-19, at 16 I was still quite childlike mentally.

I agree (I have 2 adopted children who sometimes baffle me). Son neuro divergent. We had a standoff when he was 16 (involving family therapy) and he elected to leave home rather than comply with family rules. As care leaver got support and ended up in residence with similar young people and support which he accepted (didn't accept what we offered).

Crazy bad at the time but he's done so well (with help of diagnosis).

Not sure I accept help from "professionals". We had tons of training and were advised that we needed to try harder as parents. Not saying we were any way perfect but ...

He started off with part time work at McDonald's. Perhaps that might be a way forward.

I was in our local, relatively small, McDonald's recently and I counted at least 20 staff...mostly pretty young...and every single one of them was working their arses off !!! It was manic. She wouldn't last 5 minutes in there with her attitude. It must be hard to watch OP but you can't force her to do anything she doesn't want to do. She'll grow up eventually... but I wouldn't bankroll her for anything... actions have consequences.

I don't know, working in McDonald's was transformative for my step daughter. She got a confidence from there that she never had at school

How about finding a 1 day or even 1/2 day weekly voluntary position in exchange for driving lessons ?

This could be in something non academic she's interested in -like helping younger children at a sports club, at a local farm, charity shop or garden centre. Anything that would show her she can be useful and contribute positively to society.

This may be a bit out there, but a summer placement in somewhere like Camp America could be a possibility (I haven't looked into their criteria though). She could get away from her friends and see there is so much more out there for her.

I think the only thing you can do is get her a therapist. She isn’t going to listen to you.

So sorry you’re going through this.