To allow my DD to follow her ridiculous "life plan"

[14HoursToSaveTheEarth]

This is not really an AIBU. I'm asking for advice/views. Long post so sorry.

My DD (16) is a number of things including confident and articulate. This may sound harsh but she is also in many ways immature and gullible, and very, very lazy. She left secondary school without a single GCSE of any grade and to be honest I think it is safe to say that this will continue and she will leave all education without any qualifications. Importantly, she does not care. She lives a privileged life in a seven bedroom house where she wants for nothing, but her attitude is that work is for fools and she plans to live off the government until she gets married and they look after her. You have no idea how long we have spent trying to dispel this fantasy and educate her as to how life will be in the real world if she doesn't change her attitude but she thinks we made our life choices (like going to university, gaining multiple degrees and working long hours at good jobs to provide her with this life) and she will make hers.

So she now has a "friend" who she met online via other friends who has had a hard time in life. She is also 16 but she cannot live at home due to her family circumstances, so he has a flat paid for by the local authority (according to DD). This friend has it sounds serious mental health issues, is a self-harmer and has attempted suicide several times, and recently had a miscarriage. I do not think it was her first pregnancy. The friend lives in East London. We live in the countryside several hours from London.

DD and her friend have now hatched a master plan whereby when they turn 18 DD will move in with her friend in London and they will both live off of benefits and never have to work, or at most they will get a job at MacDonalds.They think that this is them beating the system and they laugh at people planning to go to university and get jobs.

I could write this off as a teenage fantasy, which it probably is, but I constantly see threads on MN about young women who are living the life she describes and it makes me despair that this plan may become a reality. I don't even know what to do if we cannot talk her out of it. Do we drive her to London and try to be "supportive" (though I would not give her money other than in an emergency) in order to still be part of her life when it all goes wrong, or do we say "fine, make your choices but stand on your own two feet then" and see her sink possibly out of our lives forever?

DD also has two younger siblings who idolise her and I really worry about the message this sends to them, if she messages them about her amazing life in London sticking a finger up at everything we are trying to get them to work towards.

For full disclosure, as I don't want to be accused of drip-feeding, my DD was adopted at age three.

I know this will probably all come to nothing but it horrifies me when I hear her planning for a future that I know will be so bleak when for so many years we had such high hopes for her future. She has tried vaping and tried alcohol at a party but she hated both, so does not drink or smoke, has never tried drugs and is a virgin. However, she is incredibly stubborn and I have seen her turn viciously on people, including teachers, who do not allow her to have her own way (though thankfully this is not often), and so I can see her following through on this ridiculous plan out of sheer willfulness.

Before anyone asks, DH and I are fully on the same page on this issue. We are both equally horrified at her so-called plans but at a loss as to how to curtail them when she listens to everything we say and then simply says that she has her own mind and when she is 18 we cannot stop her. And she is right.

Beside this ridiculous plan and a general laziness with respect to anything concerning study, she is actually a pretty good kid most days (the moments of stubbornness I mentioned above are momentous but rare), so I have no reason to do anything to punish her. She is allowed to have friends and crazy ideas.

So please MN, your views:

Am I being UNREASONABLE and should let her spread her wings and move in with an unstable friend and live a life that horrifies me, putting her safety at risk in the hope that she sees sense and comes home, or

am I being REASONABLE and should do everything to prevent her from moving in with her friend when she is 18, even if that drives a wedge between us, hoping that she eventually understands this is for her benefit?

or should we do something else entirely?

I worked with vulnerable children for a number of years in a psychiatric setting. You mention that your daughter came to you at age 3, and that’s significant. Whatever happened to her in those three years will be what’s informing the behaviour now. Look up reduced prefrontal cortex development and amygdala damage in children who are neglected. There are levels of neglect, we don’t know where she falls in that, but even the less heinous stuff can result in an arrested development of the brain.

i completely understand you not sharing details, I fully respect it, but those first three years of her development, her story as you call it, is the most important thing here.

Pushing your dds mad plan to the side, you sound dreadfully judgemental of this other girl , her circumstances and poor people in general to be honest. It sounds like at least some empathy has managed to find its way to your daughter despite you not having much, if any.

I think a contributing factor could be the fact that Gen Z are cracking under the pressure of working without reward. Salaries are too low, the cost of living is too high, workplaces are understaffed and exploitative, public services don't work, infrastructure doesn't work, social security nets have been withdrawn. Teens and young adults are aware that even making all the "right" life choices can still see you struggling to get even a menial job and struggling to make ends meet. When you're not on an equal footing with your peers because of early life adversity, it's really tempting to give up.

The "luxury benefits lifestyle" is a myth, but frankly, work and education doesn't pay off for young people either. It's going to spill over eventually in a major way. People who bought their house in the SE for £75k in 1990 are wondering why the younger generation "lack resilience". Everything is too hard now and the younger generation can't shoulder it forever.

I’d get her to find out how much she’s entitled to. Then some tough love (and state as such that you are there if she wants to talk), I would give her the £ amount, charge rent for her room, get her to pay for food, bills and everything else she will require from these funds and do not give her a penny more.

I know two families in real life where their adopted child is trying to or is following a life which has more in common with the life they would have led with their birth parents than the life and what had been modelled by their adopted parents. So drugs, getting in with children from neglectful families. Like a pull back to where they came from.

I agree with this.

The tough love / lazy / spoiled teen is a wrong-headed characterisation which would only lead to punishment approaches which would inadvertently only crush this traumatised, dissociated, potentially ND / SEN vulnerable teen to oblivion where their emotional escape from their internal distress and external pressures would be thru very unhealthy life choices would be the chaotic spiral that’s unnecessary.

This vulnerable teen with huge, invisible (to some), and unmet, emotional development needs, requires professional expert intervention from a team of specialist adoption & trauma psychologists and educational psychologists to assess, plan and progress interventions to support and address her emotional deficits in the coming years.

This could go very sadly wrong or @14HoursToSaveTheEarthcould get on with pulling all of these experts together - as well as support and information for herself, her husband and the younger siblings.

I read all the thread last night and firstly want to commend you for all your qualities, being a mum is no walk in the park for any of us but as an adoptive mum to 3 (I think) I'm pretty sure they are lucky to have such kind, compassionate parents who have done everything possible to give them what they need and deserve as children. Be proud of yourselves x

I learned through bringing my own DD up that what they already have is where the bar sits, they don't see all the work, effort, commitment that goes into everything you do, they always want more or something different or it's not what they want or asked for. It comes across as ungrateful, a slap in the face, why do we bother - because that's who we are, setting examples for them to follow in the hope that we've taught them all we can so that they can survive into adulthood and beyond - that's the plan.

I'd describe my DD as articulate, beautiful, funny, caring, she's clever, stubborn and determined (not dissimilar to your DD in many ways) she's at Uni but living at home, she's 20 now. The teen years are difficult for them - we've had so many wild ideas and aspirations she's floored us many times but she's found out that life ain't a bed of roses, far from it. You just have to hold on tight and enjoy the ride - just let her know that you're always there x

You are getting some very harsh and ignorant replies here, OP, especially from those who haven't even bothered to read all of your posts. I hope you can just ignore the ones whose knee-jerk reaction is that your DD is a spoiled brat and you are a bad mother. Some posters have taken the trouble to write kind and considered responses for you and I hope you will be able to take comfort from them, and maybe even some practical advice that will help you and your DD. I wish you all the best.

Thank you. DD turns 17 in a couple of months and we plan to give her driving lessons then. It will be really interesting to see how she copes with the theory test (i.e. something that she is motivated to revise for) compared with school and hopefully it will prove to her that she can achieve things if she is prepared to work hard.

If she passed her test she would then have to get and keep a job if she wanted to run a car. I don't mind helping her out with the car itself as a reward for working hard to pass, but the insurance and fuel will be on her.

I think there are still options. I mean, some of them may be options she will hate (thinking of the boy I drove passed this morning in the rain holding the STOP/GO signs up next to temporary road works), but they are there.

Just to note, practicing on the theory test app is by far the best way to revise for the theory test btw.

Thank you. I hoped I was actually being supportive of DD's friend as I think she has been through a tough time that was none of her making and she deserves support. However, that does not extend to me wanting my DD to pursue a plan with her that involves neither of them achieving their potential. If they were telling me that they wanted to set up a hairdressing business together that would be a goal I could get behind, but telling me that the extent of their ambition is for the friend to apply for a PIP is terrifying.

But it is useful to know how I come across.

Thank you. I hoped I was actually being supportive of DD's friend as I think she has been through a tough time that was none of her making and she deserves support.

You came across as compassionate and understanding.

My BF has no qualifications either and is a self employed musician. There are alternative ways. Hopefully she’ll find hers.

I agree.

This vulnerable young person likely has significant invisible cognitive and psychological limitations and maybe disabilities from her adoption / attachment separation trauma, from any inconsistent abusive / neglectful parenting in her first 3 years of life, possibly a chaotic early home life (exposed to poverty, addiction, DA, parental MH issues?).

She has not been assessed yet (I don’t think) by an Ed Psych or trauma specialist so no one has any idea of the extent of her issues yet. She has likely masked very well (confident, social, articulate) but hormones and the neurobiological re-wiring in the teenage body and brain of already understandable compromised child is most likely very overwhelming for her.

I don’t see any point of hand wringing or coming up with uninformed schemes for education/work/punishment/incentive until the OP has her child assessed and knows where she is starting from and has an experienced professional guide a programme for her. The OP can’t love her through this or rationalise it with her. This is too big - but it’s not at all insurmountable. The OP has raised her to 16 in a calm and compassionate way that has ensured she hasn’t gone off the rails to date. That says a lot and is money in the emotional bank. These recent current issues and the next phase is beyond the OPs pay grade (or any parents) - so a team of experts need to be brought on board. The OP has done a fantastic job to date for both her daughter and society. There is lots of love and trust in the bank but normal rules don’t apply here and could backfire.

totally with @Blindsidedd. You need some help.

https://www.researchinpractice.org.uk/media/3pifwhob/support-around-children-who-have-experienced-developmental-trauma-fb-web.pdf

This might help.

Your opinion only!
I know all about Adoption!

You come across in all your posts as compassionate, understanding and practical - an excellent combination. Too many posters here on mumsnet are quick to judge and condemn you. Your situation is difficult and could go either way, but it strikes me you are doing your absolute best for your daughter.

I am an old woman now but I had a difficult time at school, left home at 16 and had an interesting though very challenging life. My parents were always there for me. I did not listen to them when I was a teenager, I had dreams and notions not that dissimilar from your daughter's.

I was diagnosed autistic at the age of 67. Very, very late. But it made me feel better to understand what was at the root of my difficulties.

16, she's still a child. The brain and spinal cord does not mature until a person is in their late 20s. But our society isn't interested in helping young people to thrive, it seems. Your daughter is lucky that you're her mum. You are interested, you do care, you take action.

Getting some support from a knowledgeable psychologist would be a good start.

Really, can you share with us what your personal experience of adoption is? I’m an adoptive parent and I wouldn’t presume to understand what it’s actually been like for my DDs to have been removed from their birth family. It’s impacted on both of them in different ways.

Unless you were adopted yourself, you can’t presume to speak for adoptees or claim to ‘know all about adoption’.

No you don’t. Even if you were a social worker specialising in adoption you cannot know the ins and outs of this one and given she was adopted with a younger sibling she clearly was a toddler when she was adopted making it trickier and personal

100% agree with nuffsaidsam. A practice run. She won't like it and make sure she is aware of what the younger ones have. If she wants money for something say she needs to work for it.

What about things like driving lessons, hobbies etc, mine were desperate to get a job to fund things like that? Especially living in a semi rural area, all the kids want to learn to drive asap

OP is going to pay for her driving lessons.

When I turned 17 I was given a course of driving lessons by my parents, who were not at all well off. My friends received the same from theirs. I always assumed we would do the same, but maybe the world has changed.