To allow my DD to follow her ridiculous "life plan"

[14HoursToSaveTheEarth]

This is not really an AIBU. I'm asking for advice/views. Long post so sorry.

My DD (16) is a number of things including confident and articulate. This may sound harsh but she is also in many ways immature and gullible, and very, very lazy. She left secondary school without a single GCSE of any grade and to be honest I think it is safe to say that this will continue and she will leave all education without any qualifications. Importantly, she does not care. She lives a privileged life in a seven bedroom house where she wants for nothing, but her attitude is that work is for fools and she plans to live off the government until she gets married and they look after her. You have no idea how long we have spent trying to dispel this fantasy and educate her as to how life will be in the real world if she doesn't change her attitude but she thinks we made our life choices (like going to university, gaining multiple degrees and working long hours at good jobs to provide her with this life) and she will make hers.

So she now has a "friend" who she met online via other friends who has had a hard time in life. She is also 16 but she cannot live at home due to her family circumstances, so he has a flat paid for by the local authority (according to DD). This friend has it sounds serious mental health issues, is a self-harmer and has attempted suicide several times, and recently had a miscarriage. I do not think it was her first pregnancy. The friend lives in East London. We live in the countryside several hours from London.

DD and her friend have now hatched a master plan whereby when they turn 18 DD will move in with her friend in London and they will both live off of benefits and never have to work, or at most they will get a job at MacDonalds.They think that this is them beating the system and they laugh at people planning to go to university and get jobs.

I could write this off as a teenage fantasy, which it probably is, but I constantly see threads on MN about young women who are living the life she describes and it makes me despair that this plan may become a reality. I don't even know what to do if we cannot talk her out of it. Do we drive her to London and try to be "supportive" (though I would not give her money other than in an emergency) in order to still be part of her life when it all goes wrong, or do we say "fine, make your choices but stand on your own two feet then" and see her sink possibly out of our lives forever?

DD also has two younger siblings who idolise her and I really worry about the message this sends to them, if she messages them about her amazing life in London sticking a finger up at everything we are trying to get them to work towards.

For full disclosure, as I don't want to be accused of drip-feeding, my DD was adopted at age three.

I know this will probably all come to nothing but it horrifies me when I hear her planning for a future that I know will be so bleak when for so many years we had such high hopes for her future. She has tried vaping and tried alcohol at a party but she hated both, so does not drink or smoke, has never tried drugs and is a virgin. However, she is incredibly stubborn and I have seen her turn viciously on people, including teachers, who do not allow her to have her own way (though thankfully this is not often), and so I can see her following through on this ridiculous plan out of sheer willfulness.

Before anyone asks, DH and I are fully on the same page on this issue. We are both equally horrified at her so-called plans but at a loss as to how to curtail them when she listens to everything we say and then simply says that she has her own mind and when she is 18 we cannot stop her. And she is right.

Beside this ridiculous plan and a general laziness with respect to anything concerning study, she is actually a pretty good kid most days (the moments of stubbornness I mentioned above are momentous but rare), so I have no reason to do anything to punish her. She is allowed to have friends and crazy ideas.

So please MN, your views:

Am I being UNREASONABLE and should let her spread her wings and move in with an unstable friend and live a life that horrifies me, putting her safety at risk in the hope that she sees sense and comes home, or

am I being REASONABLE and should do everything to prevent her from moving in with her friend when she is 18, even if that drives a wedge between us, hoping that she eventually understands this is for her benefit?

or should we do something else entirely?

I'm paying for my kids' driving lessons, I know not everyone does, but I don't think it's unusual.

I paid for all my kids' driving lessons.

What more that the research and evidence base or NSPCC?

https://learning.nspcc.org.uk/Search?term=Trauma+from+adoption+neglect+abuse+&sortBy=Relevance

Pretty standard.

Would a parent punish and deny a child with any other challenge that impacted and limited them - eg diabetes ?

Mine would never have paid for mine. Most of my friends had part time jobs we used to pay for them.

It wasn’t a criticism though. I know nothing of adoption, so your plan for her to want a job to afford petrol etc sounds like a good one.

Do you chat a lot to DD? I found that DD often expressed her worries about all sorts of things in the evenings, she'd send me a message 'can you come up' and off I'd go, then I'd get a run down of the day's events and her frustrations - we unpicked everything, talked it through and reframed it so she could settle. School is hard in Academy years, far worse than when I was at school and kids aren't very nice to each other these days. I know DD found it difficult in every sense and we both supported her (stepdad) both always available to listen whatever the issue.

I'm just wondering how your DD experienced school based on what you've said about her not passing exams/not really interested and how you've dealt with that - have you explored that with her, has she given any reasons why and what have school said/done if anything? I'm trying to approach this gently rather than throwing things at you like some OP's have - I'm coming from a good place & only want to help x

This isn’t a criticism of you OP. It’s support. But see short post looks ambiguous.

your DD’s story has some similarities to my DS also 16 and adopted at 4 . He too has no GCSEs and has an apathy one could describe as laziness. However as many insightful people have commented there are likely to be multiple factors here influencing your daughters decision making - there are some positives - she is speaking to you about her plans , suggesting she needs your input , she’s seeking friendship and making life changing plans ( this is not unusual , her peers will be thinking of college indeed this was your own experience , perhaps she’s thinking she should leave home at 18 , it’s increasingly not the case , others note Gen Z young people are experiencing less wages /higher rents / a USA study has shown there’s an attitude in only doing the minimum to get work etc , also fact she is showing so little aspiration smacks so much of little self worth . My only suggestion is - speak with college and her parents together , look at courses that have no academic demand and purely practical to remove this expectation , ask for assessments as others have suggested -if not done in previous school , more to check there is no underlying factors . Also adoption support wonder if they can offer funding for counselling for adopted teens , please gently guide her , my son I can’t deny I do pee him off if I place any demand on him - it’s a tough balance , having driving lessons could be a useful carrot . The options for post 16 education for those with no GCSEs is slim, I basically said to my DS pick a course that most interests you now , there is no expectation you will know what to want to do at 16 you may move onto something else in the future, have lots jobs. . Also has she heard the positives of working: not just the pay balance but a way of learning skills, making friends , getting more confident , learning new interests. Good luck x

I agree that it sounds like the OP’s DD suffers from a lack of self-worth. She didn’t pass any GCSEs at all, so very likely thinks she wouldn’t be able to get a better job than working in McDonalds.

My DD1 is like this. She thought that she wouldn’t be able to pass her GCSEs so didn’t even try to revise. She’s since been assessed as being a long way behind academically so that belief wasn’t unsurprising though extremely sad. (The high school she was at kept repeating that they could meet her needs, though, which made getting her an EHCP very difficult.

Things are going better for her at her specialist college, where they’ve worked out how to get the best out of her. She’s also found that she enjoys working with animals at a farm one afternoon a week. She’s gaining in confidence so I’m becoming more optimistic for her now.

I am so sorry and shocked by this post.
Do you pay for her clothes, make up, treats etc?
If you do then stop, she will have to get a job to pay for the treats. I would be and appear disinterested when she talks about her dreams.. don't talk about her dreams to live off benefits etc, hopefully she will stop being in a dream world. Good luck xx

At the beginning of September my 16yo didn’t want to go to college and wanted to drop out of the course. Her plan was to be a gamer and stay home all day! I had to be pretty firm and not letting her drop out of the course or do anything daft like that but I think it was was the transition and making new friends that she was lacking confidence about.

A term on and she has the usual moans about assignment deadlines etc but she has made friends and just done some work experience for the course which has really changed her in confidence and mindset and she’s picked up a little job for a few hours a week at the local pub waitressing.

My point is, so long as you stick to your boundaries and give her opportunities to see other paths she may well grow up a lot over the next few months. I find a big motivator for work is them wanting to take driving lessons. I can’t afford to pay them so they have to get a job to fund these each week. We live rurally with a poor bus service so they have a reason to want to do them.

I always looked on it as part of 'education'.

Ah ok… can’t blame her for not wanting to do the typical middle class uni then rat race thing. My DD with a degree and professional qualifications plus a job with huge responsibilities earns less than the other 2 DC without degrees and also has student loans to pay. Actually found herself to be significantly worse off than was before starting uni, she’s doing what she loves and very proud of her but don’t see the point of going to uni for the sake of it unless a particular passion. As for driving lessons, if parents wealthy enough to afford then go for it, is about the most useful qualification can have. Perhaps the DD could be persuaded to spend her next couple of years gaining a vocational qualification and/or experience, she doesn’t sound ready for an academic route at the moment

I think parents sometimes do if they can afford it, my parents couldn’t and we couldn’t despite being a higher earning household, however if it’s something you’re lucky enough to afford then go for it

May I ask what is a specialised college that you mentioned. My DD is 15 but very unwilling to try and study for her GCSEs, at the moment predicted to fail in maths and science if she carries on like this. We’ve got a tutor but she’s not retaining any knowledge, it’s a combination of lack of interest and dyslexia, I’m sad as she has talents in performing arts, but has become so lasy and unwilling to even try. Just interested in chatting on Snapchat and insists she’ll do better in life than us (her parents). We both went to uni and have good jobs in middle management. But she thinks she’ll be able to succeed with no knowledge and no GCSEs or qualifications - this generation and so ignorant. My older DD is in uni and completely different attitude. My mum said something to me the other day- until she decides herself that she wants to change or achieve something, there is little we can do to encourage her. It’s sad really. Good luck to you all

@SueElla I’ve sent you a private message to answer your question.

I think there's a lot of pressure at school and can honestly say that I think it's cruel. Obviously every child/teen is different but the way they cram lessons in and expect everyone to understand what's being taught is enough to send them the other way and make them feel inadequate. Not everyone learns at the same speed or processes the information in the same way. I remember DD saying all the teachers were forever pressuring them about GCSE's instead of making sure they understood what was being taught. After GCSE's it's A Levels then Uni - like a production line. Dd is at Uni and hates it, she was determined to go but regrets it and the stress of it all has affected her. Her friends are the same.

The main thing is, she has to know that you love and care for her and the only reason you get frustrated with her silly ideas is because of this. Tough love won’t work but you do have to make sure she’s not completely taking the piss and just allowed to f about. Therapy and positive energy, positive influences etc.

Could she have a tutor for any subjects? Is it a rebellion against her privileged life?
on a positive note, I knew an adopted child who had great parents but she rebelled and dossed about, did drugs and got a shitty job- she is now a doctor.

I've only read your replies OP not the whole thread so sorry if this has already been said, but a lot of adoption teams in local authorities have been merged into Regional Adoption Agencies since you adopted your daughter so even if you haven't had great support in the past it's likely to be different now, definitely worth getting in touch. The support responsibility lies with the local agency to where you live, regardless of where DD was originally, as the adoption was more than 3 years ago. A quick Google should tell you which RAA it is. There's likely to be a wait to get an assessment with their support service so do that ASAP. DD will be eligible for the Adoption and Special Guardianship Support Fund (ASGSF) to access specific adoption informed therapeutic support, but you have to go through the RAA (or whatever your local LA use for adoption support, some might still be individual teams). If you do get an adoption support assessment, it could be worth including all your kids in the assessment to minimise wait times in case they need some support at some point!

If you're in a position to seek therapeutic support privately (can help to skip the wait times involved in statutory support) make sure you find a therapist who is experienced in adoption and understands childhood and developmental trauma, and attachment issues.

The RAA or therapist will hopefully also be able to give advice and support for you to work with your DD in a way that doesn't make her feel like you're getting her therapy because you think she needs 'fixing'.

A lot of RAAs will also be able to put you in touch with other local adopters for peer support, it can help you feel less alone as a lot will likely be able to relate. Some even have social events for adopted teenagers which can be fun!

@14HoursToSaveTheEarth if she panics when asked the time surely you’ve missed out on getting her a diagnosis on a learning difficulty. It sounds like dyslexia. What was she like in primary school?

I lived independently at sixteen and was on benefits and still at school. I had no choice in the matter. It was a difficult time and I was often hungry. She'll get a shock

I don’t really have any advice to be honest, but just want to say hang in there - it must be hard for you witnessing this and knowing she can achieve more for herself xx

I'm a bit worried about these online friendships, that they are taking up too much of her headspace.

She sounds like a spoilt brat and expects hard working taxpayers to support her lazy lifestyle.

Why do the majority of people think working for McDonald's is a poor job? I can assure you it isn't, in fact a lot of employers welcome ex McDonald's staff, it's not an easy job, there are many rules and if they aren't adhered to the person concerned will find themselves jobless after the correct disciplinary action has been actioned. 2 of my kids worked there one for 6 years the other for 4, they have both gone on to have responsible, well paid jobs now. If you aren't a team player you won't last 5 minutes there. How can I say this? I worked there for 35 years, mad? Maybe but on the whole I enjoyed my work, made a lot of friends, worked my way up with no GCE's or GCSE's although I doubt they would emply anyone with no qualifications now.