To allow my DD to follow her ridiculous "life plan"

[14HoursToSaveTheEarth]

This is not really an AIBU. I'm asking for advice/views. Long post so sorry.

My DD (16) is a number of things including confident and articulate. This may sound harsh but she is also in many ways immature and gullible, and very, very lazy. She left secondary school without a single GCSE of any grade and to be honest I think it is safe to say that this will continue and she will leave all education without any qualifications. Importantly, she does not care. She lives a privileged life in a seven bedroom house where she wants for nothing, but her attitude is that work is for fools and she plans to live off the government until she gets married and they look after her. You have no idea how long we have spent trying to dispel this fantasy and educate her as to how life will be in the real world if she doesn't change her attitude but she thinks we made our life choices (like going to university, gaining multiple degrees and working long hours at good jobs to provide her with this life) and she will make hers.

So she now has a "friend" who she met online via other friends who has had a hard time in life. She is also 16 but she cannot live at home due to her family circumstances, so he has a flat paid for by the local authority (according to DD). This friend has it sounds serious mental health issues, is a self-harmer and has attempted suicide several times, and recently had a miscarriage. I do not think it was her first pregnancy. The friend lives in East London. We live in the countryside several hours from London.

DD and her friend have now hatched a master plan whereby when they turn 18 DD will move in with her friend in London and they will both live off of benefits and never have to work, or at most they will get a job at MacDonalds.They think that this is them beating the system and they laugh at people planning to go to university and get jobs.

I could write this off as a teenage fantasy, which it probably is, but I constantly see threads on MN about young women who are living the life she describes and it makes me despair that this plan may become a reality. I don't even know what to do if we cannot talk her out of it. Do we drive her to London and try to be "supportive" (though I would not give her money other than in an emergency) in order to still be part of her life when it all goes wrong, or do we say "fine, make your choices but stand on your own two feet then" and see her sink possibly out of our lives forever?

DD also has two younger siblings who idolise her and I really worry about the message this sends to them, if she messages them about her amazing life in London sticking a finger up at everything we are trying to get them to work towards.

For full disclosure, as I don't want to be accused of drip-feeding, my DD was adopted at age three.

I know this will probably all come to nothing but it horrifies me when I hear her planning for a future that I know will be so bleak when for so many years we had such high hopes for her future. She has tried vaping and tried alcohol at a party but she hated both, so does not drink or smoke, has never tried drugs and is a virgin. However, she is incredibly stubborn and I have seen her turn viciously on people, including teachers, who do not allow her to have her own way (though thankfully this is not often), and so I can see her following through on this ridiculous plan out of sheer willfulness.

Before anyone asks, DH and I are fully on the same page on this issue. We are both equally horrified at her so-called plans but at a loss as to how to curtail them when she listens to everything we say and then simply says that she has her own mind and when she is 18 we cannot stop her. And she is right.

Beside this ridiculous plan and a general laziness with respect to anything concerning study, she is actually a pretty good kid most days (the moments of stubbornness I mentioned above are momentous but rare), so I have no reason to do anything to punish her. She is allowed to have friends and crazy ideas.

So please MN, your views:

Am I being UNREASONABLE and should let her spread her wings and move in with an unstable friend and live a life that horrifies me, putting her safety at risk in the hope that she sees sense and comes home, or

am I being REASONABLE and should do everything to prevent her from moving in with her friend when she is 18, even if that drives a wedge between us, hoping that she eventually understands this is for her benefit?

or should we do something else entirely?

*Sorry - meant support for care leavers stops at 25

Jeez. This is prb my worse fear in parenting. After all the bloody sacrifice to my daughter in education, clothing, experiences to come out with a useless brain to not make proper decisions in life, and yes I know 16 etc but trust . She won't change, build like that in genes, I do wish you the best in your hard journey. Send her abroad to study a language or something under supervision away from that shit friendship. Your post open a completely new fear.

Jeepers @Coloursingreydays thats harsh.

the nature vs nurture argument is tough but it will be different for everyone.

I don’t disagree that genes are hugely a part of who we are

as are early traumatic experiences from inutero through to separation, loss, new relationships, attachment learning difficulties etc etc

but as an adoptive mom I have to believe that our love, guidance, support and role modelling will help influence decisions as our ds grows.

I’m not naive, we’re not having an easy ride now and I know the teen years are going to be even harder but I will keep my belief that my gorgeous ds will become a caring adult and whatever his ability - his brain is not useless and I hope he will have gained the skills to navigate the world in spite of his differences.

sending her away isn’t going to fix this. Proper professional therapeutic attachment focussed support stands a chance.

also I made some pretty poor decisions at 16 -20 that make me grateful there was no social media around in those days and I turned out ok because I had a loving family as does she.

@14HoursToSaveTheEarth completely understand you not wanting to share more and glad you’re taking on board getting her the right support. Post adoption services will have access to that but you might need to push for it. It’s worth it!

wishing you all the best 💐

I had a few thoughts reading this. Of course, I'm not certain.

1. This seems a little like someone with pathological demand avoidance. It's quite possible she already recognises what she'd be giving up (a career, fun holidays, adventure, nice clothes). However, perhaps for her, the ability to truly do as she likes trumps this all.

I think in adulthood, we do sometimes seek out what was missing for us in childhood. For instance, I myself had no opportunity to travel growing up - and now it's an essential for my future. I can believe that in her short life, she has already had so much happen to her out of her control (i.e. with respect to her birth mother), that truly valuing autonomy above all else makes sense. However, unfortunately, money is autonomy, and she is yet to learn that.

It could be helpful to explain to her that on benefits, she would still be expected to go to the job centre frequently and demonstrate that she has been applying for jobs for 35 hours a week. Further, you could also make the point that she wouldn't be able to do what she wanted - even just tube travel each day in London would likely use up the entirety of her benefits.

2. I had a friend who was not this extreme, but fundamentally the adventure she sought was to live in London at any cost. So, she lived in a small shared house with strangers in zone 6, and commuted into work each day for over an hour, to stand and work in a chain coffee shop. To maintain her life she had to work constantly, and she found the life in practice was actually miserable. I don't think there's any way to "teach" your daughter this - unfortunately, she would probably have to experience it herself.

Very tricky, she needs professional help, I will say I have seen similar behaviour, allot of it came from fear of failure.

Do you praise effort rather than achievement?
I don’t know if it would be safe or advisable to do this, but my instinct would be to cut off the friends and throw her into new experiences. Get her a mentor closer to her in age to her.

it seems like she needs a reset, I would send her to an adventure/expedition group.
The Outward Bound Trust (UK + International)

Raleigh International Expedition (UK charity with mentoring)

Not as a punishment, as an adventure, let her see what the world has to offer. You need professional advice first and foremost, but instinctively I feel like new scenery would help her.

If she’s dealing with abandonment issues then of course you have to tread carefully, professional advice is so vital.

Outward bound look fantastic, they work with teens like your daughter, I would get in touch.

I understand your concerns but a lot can happen between 16 and 18. Most 16 years olds are stubborn, immature and gullible (i know, I was). All you can do is while seemingly accepting her decisions try to make her see how hard life will be on benefits. All the lovely things that you have been able to give her, she will not be able to afford, let alone for her children if she ends up having any. My main concerns are with this 'friend' it seems they have cooked up this plan together and while I feel for a person who has had a hard life and struggles with mental issues I can't help thinking she is a bad influence on your daughter and could be coercing her into choosing the same lifestyle, are you able to limit the contact they have either by putting restrictions on screen time or tighter control over what she does online? If by 18 she still wishes to do this, let her go, but also let her know that she can come home if she needs to, no 'I told you so'. She may decide later on that uni is a good idea and she can go later, my husband was 23 when he started uni and there were people in their 40's on both our courses, just be there for her, when she needs you and she will.

Statistics are pretty thin since they are provided through schools and educational bodies who don't necessarily have adopted/non-adopted information about all pupils. The other point has to do with the level of trauma the child has in suffered prior to adoption. Most adoptees have abandonment issues which can easily turn into feelings of worthlessness which can often result in giving up without trying. You mention the 'blank page syndrome' so this might be interesting https://www.ool.co.uk/blog/blank-page-syndrome-and-how-to-beat-it

She'll find her own way, sooner or later, she's only 16. If she signs on and claims at 18, then she'll be hounded to get any old low paid job (even if theres nothing suitable in her location or skillset) with reviews every month, it's not really possible to simply languish on the dole, this is a myth, they'll send her on endless, utterly pointless courses for one thing. In a minimum wage job she wont be able to afford accommodation and bills unless she flat shares anyway, so there's that. In London - even harder, try getting a private rental, on your own if you earn less than 60k, no way. This seems like a rebellious stage which is normal at 16. However, I also feel it's fair to criticise the standard university route. A degree is one of the most expensive things a young person can buy, she'll be saddled with 80k of debt after 3 years and the options in the job market, unless they choose a really specific, niche degree will be virtually the same, often with only internships available in the more interesting and desirable professions. A lot of degrees honestly seem to teach absolutely nothing industry-worthy too, makes me wonder what they got for their money - we had English interns at our photography + design business in London and they were invariably far less well educated at 21 than interns we had from the Netherlands at 18, who all spoke perfect English and had incredible skills, not just for their age, but in general. So maybe she's disillusioned with the present day job market and I don't blame her to be honest. My advice is to find out what makes her tick, if its nothing yet then encourage her to discover a passion - there are loads of creative apprenticeships in things like sound engineering, or 3D printing, or lighting design for the live industry, multiple choice for people of her age AND the best part is she'll get a small wage from it, it was about £150 a week the last time we took on an apprentice a few years ago. Encourage her to find her passion, it may take time, but she'll find it. She's actually incredibly lucky to have you as a springboard in life.

Agreed. We can wish for the best for the OP and her daughter, however almost all of the responders are focusing on feels and diagnosis and the general throw away support that the OP already knows about. What the OP needs is real advice about the possibility that her daughter is going to go through with her plans.

Sure, the daughter can turn it around, but that's best case scenario. What if she doesn't? The OP needs to be prepared for the worst. Because if she is, then anything else is far more manageable.

I totally agree with you.

They would have to pay for it privately as the local authorities aren’t interested once you have signed up - it’s appalling.

I think maybe the problem is here that her wants and expectations are so small . It doesn't sound like she has much of a social life . At 16 I was literally never home and I also had had a job since I was 11. I won't or wouldn't be recommending that level of work ethic as my parents shouldn't have let me decide I needed a job at 11. However I guess my point is other than her needing therapy quite frankly she needs to.get out of the house see the world . Maybe it's time for some proactive visits different communities ... To see that the flat thing isn't realistic often she could be houses along people with profound substance metal health ,crime associated behaviours. I grew up on a council estate ....it wasnt like only fools and horses.

Not sure if this helps but at around her age (in a private school 🤦🏼‍♀️) 3 or 4 of us tried to work out how we could live a life without working! We planned it around getting married and doing degree after degree etc! It was a ridiculous idea but I think was born of fear of the adult world and if it’s any consolation I ended up going to university, getting a degree, getting a masters. and I’ve had a successful legal career. None of the people that planned the same thing with me either went on to live a life of idleness.

I was working weekends at McDonalds at her age, give her a taste of her life plan and see how she likes it!

I think this is very astute.

From what you’ve said about your dd, I think she’s probably quite bright but doesn’t believe in herself. She was predicted 5’s, perhaps some 6’s without any outside tutoring and with all of the trauma she suffered in her former years and the amount of self doubt she seems to be feeling. That’s not lower intelligence at all. And with the right support, she could perhaps achieve a lot more. Just perhaps not right now.

I also agree things need to change and quickly. I would look at various therapy models. With dd we are using a family therapist with a particular interest in neurodiversity, who will use dynamic therapy techniques. Dd wasn’t diagnosed with anything but I instinctively knew this is what she needs as I’ve long suspected some executive function even when school found nothing. The therapist isn’t a clinical psychologist, doesn’t have a doctorate but is a dog with a bone and has worked with dh and me to change the way we parent and to use very specific techniques to entice dd into therapy with her. And once with her, she spent months just building a therapeutic relationship rather than doing actual work with dd as she wasn’t ready. So she is right for us. Dd’s adopted friend otoh has access to a state funded clinical psychologist but doesn’t go to sessions. The clinical psychologist did not offer any assistance to her parents to get her into session and she has now moved out and is living on benefits.

And I would get some assessments booked for your dd. The first and easiest as long as she will comply is a dyslexia test and form 8. The latter is for if she needs extra processing time in exams. These will give you a good indication if there are issues. And as you’ve mentioned spelling, I am thinking there might be. And if she will comply, I would get an ASD assessment before then getting an ADHD one as the ASD test is the more arduous but easier to book.

I’m also wondering if the school hasn’t picked up anything with your dd wrt her writing because she’s bright. If so, this was the same with my dd. By year 10, I even requested the SENCO to liaise with all her teachers to report any findings of possible issues with dd and her learning. The SENCO reported there were none. Then a few months ago, a teacher, who dd didn’t have until A level saw something and when dd was ready, the assessments started. Dd is now diagnosed with stealth dyslexia and needing extra processing time in exams. Stealth dyslexia is incredibly difficult to spot and although my dd may spell some very basic words incorrectly (which I again always thought odd), she can spell some other much longer words correctly. So if your dd has this and any other neurodivergence, which from what you’ve said is entirely possible, she’s just an incredible masker like my dd.

I would also look at pausing work or going part time if you are able. It’s financially tough for us with private school and the ED coach (family therapy). Changing things isn’t possible if you’re not around to see what is going on. And there will be a lot going on in your dd’s world that you aren’t aware of. And a lot goes on in the background to get my dd recovered. If I weren’t spending hours every day on my dd, she wouldn’t be progressing. And you have two more dds to consider, who may also be going through other things as well.

Edit - to add, with reference to a post above. The coach has got dh and me to parent in a completely different way. And she has taught me how to counter all of the sorts of arguments your dd is having with you. To get our dd to grow up to nearer her chronical age as she stopped developing in year 5/6. And to get her to start taking responsibility for herself. This is the sort of person I’m recommending would be needed. To learn about Socratic questioning. About how to de escalate arguments. To learn how to entice her into therapy. And much more.

Working at McDonald's was actually the best thing that could have happened to my stepdaughter who didn't ever have much confidence at school and struggled to be motivated. McDonald's gave her a more supportive environment than a school and lots of training and she gained a real confidence from doing well at work and earning her own money. As a result she then actually found the drive to study in her own time and is such a different person Iwe are really proud of her

This sounds really tough for you and your husband. My daughter went to school with a lovely girl who was adopted. Once they went off to secondary school she really changed. Was out at all hours, didn’t listen to her parents and didn’t get any GCSE’s. I remember speaking with her mum at the time and she had no idea what to do. Fast forward a few years and she’s calmed down loads and is now working in hairdressing. Their relationship suffered but now they are closer than ever.

Hopefully with some therapy things will improve. Does she have any interests that could potentially turn into a career down the line? It’s hard when they have to do re-takes in stuff they really dislike before they can start a more relevant course to their interests.

I’m a huge advocate for part time work and think that will really help her. Perhaps even a few hours a week volunteering in a charity shop so it does not interfere with college. Even getting a retail job can be so hard at the moment, so some great experience on her CV now could really help.

Remember that education can happen at anytime. I have 3 autistic children who have/are really struggling. I’ve had to let go of the life I thought they would have and the path they would follow. They will find their way eventually, their story will just look different to ‘the norm’.

Your daughter is lucky to have such a supportive family. If she does pursue her ‘plan’ I’ve no doubt she will be back with her tail between her legs in no time.

Like others have said, lots can change in the next two years. Keep communication open! How is your relationship at the moment? Can you carve out some time for just you and her? A regular coffee date for example.

When I was 15 I wanted to play in a band ( couldn’t play an instrument) , go to live with a friend who was only a pen pal 200 miles away from home in the back end of beyond and work with her in a chicken factory ( I’m a vegetarian!!). Some teens have absolutely no idea - three years later I was at uni and had completely and utterly changed my mind!!! I pity my poor parents but think they did the right thing by simply ignoring the whole plan. Fighting against it ( and explaining time and time again why plans are not practical) simply makes a youngster dig in. You CAN however make them a bit more aware of reality by limiting the budget for WiFi/ phones/ gaming/ clothes etc ; encouraging part time work to earn such stuff ( as they intend to do nothing else) and insisting on a slow realisation of what needs to be fine living independently- make them come food shopping once in a while; cook a meal; do laundry. The idea of living in some dog end part if the country with a limited budget and lack of home comforts will become less favourable in direct relation to how near to the actual potential happening it becomes!! At the moment it sounds like a fun rebellious plan which achieves part of its aim to wind you up ( and, I suspect, currently cunningly causes you make things even more cosy/ cushy at home to try and make the plan less attractive- which probably has the opposite effect )

Wise words. And I love how generous people can be, sharing their own stories to try to help a stranger

Congratulations for turning your life around

Part of the issue is shes had a very privileged life with you and your DH so whilst shes seen you working she has generational wealth behind her (yours)

Im on benefits, I have 3 children (dont get paid for the 3rd) and I wont tell you exacty how much I get a month as it will cause mass outrage but I will say its almost double of a minimum wage monthly payslip. My circumstances are not the typical ones though, my eldest child is at college doing a levels with strong aspirations to be a lawyer and eventually a judge. My children live on a council estate in a council house, we dont live in a massively depraved area but you can tell we are on a council estate, my eldest is determined to make something of themselves. Maybe thats the difference between being brought up with a silver spoon in your mouth and being brought up without that silver spoon.

She sounds very immature ("it's not fair"), most 16 year olds don't imagine that they can have everything that they want without doing something positive about it themselves. It's unfortunate that she's friends with a girl who has absolutely no ambition beyond social housing and dossing off the state, this makes it harder to get it through to her that you only have the better things in life if you have a decent job, and to get a decent job you need qualifications - or at least reasonable exam results.
An earlier poster wrote about going travelling for years when she was young and how she eventually came home, got a decent job and now has a settled family life. If you can't get through to your daughter perhaps this is something you can cling to, leaving the door open so that she can return without losing face.
However, as I wrote earlier, I think that the answer is to try to get help from the Adoption services, they've seen it all before and can give it to her straight about the likelihood of social housing and the realities of being on low benefits.
My DD is a foster carer and looks after teenaged girls, your daughter's attitude isn't unusual. One of her recent girls just could not settle to education post-16, changed courses several times and eventually left home without warning. The local care services provided basic accomodation, found her an apprenticeship with the Civil Service and she happily settled down to this as she had more independence and didn't need to go back to a school/FE college. She had always had some sort of Saturday job and imagined that she could spend the rest of her life doing this kind of menial work, but eventually realised that the grind of this kind of work - long hours, poor treatment and pay - was not what she wanted.

@Aghhhhhhhhhhwow. She’s had significant developmental trauma, but you focus on her adoptive parents wealth?

have you considered that it’s their “silver spoons” that are “paying” for your family and their aspirations?

I rarely read and never comment on AIBU threads, but this has been so fascinating. Your daughter sounds like a lovely young woman (saving to buy gifts) and you are clearly thoughtful, kind and sensible.

In amongst everyone's opinions you've had some sound advice here already, especially around adoption and from professionals (the NDDT poster in particular). Some of things you have said that stick out to me are the panic on her face when she's asked a question, the blank paper, and the U's when she was predicted 3's-6's. She clearly does struggle very much with demand under pressure, and perceives pressure strongly (being asked the time). I think the right sort of professional support is essential. A PP gave useful advice about finding the right therapist / therapeutic approach that fits with your family and your daughter's needs.

A job or some form of responsibility (babysitting or similar) even if voluntary could really help her with maturity and general life experience.

On the plus side, she clearly has enough confidence to a) try things her peers are doing (vaping and alcohol I think were the examples) and b) not continue with them because they're cool, as she said she didn't like them. That bodes well for her, not being so easily influenced. In addition, she has a good grasp of budgeting, respects her possessions, and has what sounds like a strong, loving relationship with you and her family, all of which will stand her in good stead. You've done a good job and will continue to do so. She genuinely sounds lovely compared with plenty of 16yo's I see around!

Wishing you all the best OP.