Was I the problem in this group?

[pxseyocto]

I have a friend at university who I’m pretty close with, probably my closest uni friend.

She recently got into archery society, found a friend group and invited me to go rock climbing with them in November. I was pretty excited since I thought it’d be good to make some friends. Once I met them there were two guys and three girls including my good friend. I shook hands with the guys and said hello to everyone, but it was initially sort of awkward since we’d thought I’d be able to get them into their first session for free (as I’d signed up there the year before and the friend mentioned something like if an existing member brings along friends they get to go free). However that didn’t work and we all had to pay individually for a session. So it was off to a bad start but I moved past and got to climbing. I didn’t really talk to the girls as I was pretty shy, we just waited for the guys to change and then we all went to climb.

I noticed from then on, that the group was mostly talking among themselves. We all had goes at climbing the same wall and when it was my turn they did give me tips and answer my questions, but apart from small talk and a few sentences they didn’t talk to me much. I could tell they were all comfortable with each other and I was kind of the outlier there, and I thought that was normal since obviously I’d just met them. I mainly kind of followed them around and had goes at climbing or pointing out which walls to do, but was mostly talking to the friend I knew already.
At one point we all got to climb one wall and I was kind of struggling at the end, when they helped me out and one of the guys pulled me up to get to the top with them. It was good and we had a sort of jokey conversation on the way down the ladder as to who should go before who.

An hour or so of climbing and one girl had to leave. I followed shortly after since I was meeting with another friend. When I was saying goodbye we got into a small conversation with the friend and the two guys. They said they were doing a boxing/mma session the next day and if I wanted to come, and I was kind of shy since it would be only me and the two guys, but I said I could and that I’ll see how things go tomorrow. I shook hands with the guys and said goodbye to them and the friend also. Not a great start but it wasn’t too bad as it was the first time meeting.

The next day I think I completely forgot about the boxing/MMA event, but I didn’t get the guys’ numbers or anything and the friend didn’t even follow up about it so I didn’t end up going, not that big of a deal.
I didn’t really expect to see them after that but I didn’t have any harsh feelings towards them, just that they were mostly talking among themselves.

A week or so later, I was eating by myself on a bench outside on campus when I saw the friend with the same group walking by. The friend didn’t see me, but the others pointed out “hey isn’t that your friend” to her, after which she came back and spoke to me. She asked what I was doing alone and I said I was just eating at my regular spot to chill by myself after lessons.

I asked where they were going and she said to an arcade, so I figured let me try and be social and asked if I could come along. She said sure and we followed right after them as they’d gone quite a bit ahead of us while we were talking. I think that in the moment I was happy they recognised me and stopped to say hi, which I took as a good sign that we broke the ice and they were comfortable with me now, so that’s why I got so confident and wanted to go with them.
As me and the friend caught up to her group though, I could tell the vibe was off again and remembered what happened at climbing before and how they mostly spoke to each other and I was the obvious outlier. I realised it’ll probably be the same now so I’d have to try extra hard to talk first, and regretted getting too confident and asking her to join them.

My guess would turn out correct as on the way there they were again mostly speaking among themselves. One of the guys who was also there the week before seemed kind of upset and wasn’t really talking to anyone either, just following quietly at the back like me. I felt kind of awkward and just kept walking along with them. We got to the train and we kind of split up in the carriage with the other guy and the girls in a large group and me, the friend I knew well and the guy who was upset were standing outside of the group, so I was talking to the friend I knew from before. She then told me to go talk to the rest and why I was just standing by myself. I don’t remember how I responded but it was probably trying to defend myself and saying the other guy wasn’t talking much either.

With him though, I noticed that the girls and other guy realised he was kind of upset and asked him if he was okay trying to find out wha was wrong, to which he kind of shrugged them off. With me though, I was just there standing around or following like a sheep as they were again, keeping and talking amongst themselves. I don’t blame them as they knew the guy well and it probably wasn’t normal for him to not talk much, while they barely knew me and had barely spoken to me before.

So back to the train and the friend telling me to talk more. I think at the end she even asked why I was there if I wasn’t gonna talk, to which I took offense. That kinda killed my mood and I saw her as being kind of blunt, saying I might as well go home at that point. I don’t think I’d ever say that to her or any friend of mine if they were left out in my friend group, rather ask them to talk or be fine with them talking to me to at least not be by themselves.

We got out of the station and the way towards the arcade was pretty much the same, them talking amongst themselves and me following around listening. What she said didn’t help me socialise any more at all, probably made me feel more stressed and I wanted to leave at that point but I felt awkward saying it and had no idea how to get myself out so I just stayed. At one point we stopped as some of them had to use the bathrooms so it was me, the friend and the two guys. I stood around quietly agin as the guys weren’t really saying anything to me, and the friend tried again breaking the ice by reintroducing us to each other and telling us to speak and say something and not make it awkward. One of the guys then said “I tried, just letting you know I’ve tried” and the other who was previously quiet and upset said “just let him smile” or something along the lines of that, because I wasn’t saying anything but smiling and walking with them. I still find that rude and backhanded, I think the first guy was trying to say he tried talking to me to no avail, but he hadn’t said a single word to me that whole journey there and I know for a fact if he spoke to me I would’ve carried on a conversation, so no he hadn’t “tried” at all. It really pissed me off even to this day but I didn’t say anything there and then.
I don’t know if the second guy was trying to defend me or make fun of me by saying to let me just smile.

The others then came back and we resumed walking to the arcade. One of the girls actually started a conversation with me then, asking me what I study. I answered and asked what she did etc, asked about archery and commented on her climbing from the week before. So I can socialise and have a conversation, it’s just I need the other person to either start it or just engage with me in the first place. We spoke until we got to the arcade, then they all started talking about who would pay on the card machine as we needed an arcade card with prepaid points inside it to go on the games and machines.

Anyway, we play a few first games and again it was mostly them competing with each other and talking, with me saying something here and there or being given the turn to play. I then spoke to the friend again, who again told me to walk up to the others and talk to them. I got a bit defensive as I was still bitter about her previous comment about why did I come if I wasn’t gonna talk, so I tried to tell her my point of view - that they weren’t talking to me either and that a conversation goes both ways, not just me trying to start convos to no avail while they mostly talk amongst each other and I’m just there outcasted. I wasn’t really keen to go up to them as it would seem like I’m begging to be inserted into the group, but I was confident to have a conversation if one of them included me like the girl who started talking to me on the way there and I reciprocated on.

After that, a third guy arrived who was also a friend of theirs already, and he was actually much nicer. After I said hi to him and we played some games he would turn to me and start conversations with me, ask me about what I do and try to include me or talk to me. That’s when things got better, I was talking to him but also the others if they were nearby or joining in, and we eventually partnered up with the guy for a game where you race with a partner, and competed against them in other games as well. We kind of broke the ice after that and us guys started talking a bit more as a group with me too. We even shared a group hug towards the end which was kind of wholesome, even said we loved each other. So the third guy coming and talking to me helped me bloom a bit like a butterfly and show that I can be talkative when the others are open to include me or initiate.

That was most of it, we went home after that and even the second guy who previously said to let me just smile was telling me a story about their group chat and just funny small talk in general. We all ended up splitting as we took different ways home, and I said bye to everyone. I later saw one of the girls at the end who happened to be going the same way home as me and we spoke about university and stuff until I got off the train.

That was around 2 months ago now, but I just wanted to ask on here if I was really the issue by not talking a lot or if a lot of you would’ve done the same as me, if maybe the vibes were off and if there’s any truth in what I said about a conversation going both ways, not just me the outsider trying to initiate with the already-friends in the group.
Another friend who I asked said I should talk to them and put myself out there and not be quiet especially as they already knew each other well.

Am I also being unreasonable to get upset at the friend’s comment about how I shouldn’t have come if I wasn’t going to talk? The whole group was mainly talking among themselves and I felt like an outlier just being there unable to insert myself into the convo. They weren’t really acknowledging me either or talking to me. Is it unreasonable to expect anyone to try and talk to me then?
I still find that comment kind of blunt from her.
Also the comments from the two guys before we got to the arcade, one who said he “tried” (when he really didn’t at least from my perspective, he was just talking to the girls he knew already and the second guy, barely acknowledging me), and the second who told her to just let me smile.

Do I need to improve my social skills of approaching people and starting conversations, or is it normal to keep quiet and not be keen to integrate if they mainly keep talking among themselves? Or maybe our vibes were just off and I don’t happen to click with them in general?

I asked chatgpt to condense it as I was getting lost!

The writer describes feeling like an outsider when spending time with their close university friend and her established friend group. After being invited rock climbing, the experience felt awkward, with the group mostly talking among themselves and only minimally engaging with the writer. Although there were some friendly moments, the writer largely felt shy, excluded, and unsure how to insert themselves into conversations.

A week later, the writer joined the same group on a spontaneous trip to an arcade. Again, the group mainly interacted with each other, reinforcing the writer’s sense of being an outlier. Their friend repeatedly told them to talk more and at one point bluntly questioned why they came if they weren’t going to talk, which upset the writer. Comments from two of the guys also felt dismissive or rude. The writer felt conversations should be a two-way effort and didn’t want to force themselves into a tight-knit group that wasn’t actively including them.
Things improved later when another guy joined who made an effort to talk and include the writer, showing that the writer can be social when others initiate or are welcoming. By the end of the evening, the atmosphere improved and interactions were more positive.

The writer is now questioning whether the issue was their own quietness and social skills, or whether the group dynamics and lack of inclusion were the real problem. They also wonder if it was reasonable to feel hurt by their friend’s blunt comment and the remarks from the two guys, and whether the mismatch was simply due to incompatible vibes rather than personal failure.

I think you've fallen into the trap of thinking everyone else knows how to act and doesn't feel awkward because you're so focused on how awkward you feel. Everyone has awkward interactions occasionally and we all have moments when we feel like we don't know what to say or do - it's nobody's fault and it doesn't mean anyone is 'the problem' - keep trying and you'll find your groove with the right people!

Voted YABU simply for the length of the post, which I didn't read.

not if they're written in that style, no 😂
Life's too short

exactly
and that's enough to explain what the problem is here.

The OP is very verbose and has a very turgid writing style. No way was I reading all of that. If their conversational style is at all similar to their writing style, it's no wonder that they struggle socially.

Aww I read it. I think there’s a chance you may be ND. I’ve never actually suggested that on here as it’s always thrown in, but honestly I think you struggled because you were massively overthinking every interaction, you struggle to initiate conversations and although you want friends you seem to be unsure how to navigate friendships.

You didn’t know how to start conversations which probably made you seem standoffish. They already knew each other so didn’t need to make any effort even though you hoped they would.

You sound very nice, but you can’t rely on extrovert people including you each time. You need to work on being comfortable starting conversations and mixing in.

Bluntly, you are overthinking this and living in your own head.

You could summarise this by

Friend has recently introduced me to some new friends in a fairly established friendship group. I do better in one to one conversations and find it difficult to engage in banter and repartee as part of a big group especially when they are new to me. [note this is perfectly normal]. Friend got a bit fed up with my shyness on the second outing and upset me a bit. Should I stop going?

a) keep going, it will get easier
b) did you apologise for not showing up to MMA? If not, then raise it next time. Honest mistake, if you'd like to have a go then say so and fgs tattoo it on your brain next time
c) chill. It will get easier, assuming you are not "socialising" with headphones in. Climbing centres are great for making new friends and they sound like a nice bunch.
d) Have they tried archery or an activity you do ? Maybe arrange something where you are the leader/expert? It will give you more to say and make you more relaxed.

You sound a lot like me, especially this:

I can socialise and have a conversation, it’s just I need the other person to either start it or just engage with me in the first place.

I'm a lot older than you and I have kind of come to terms with the fact that this kind of dynamic happens to me a lot, but it still saddens me sometimes. That feeling of people turning away/not fully noticing you.

It does sound like this is essentially quite a nice group though, and as you get to know them better you might well feel like you fit in well with them. You sound prone to analysing everything but try not to ask those questions out loud, as it does tend to put people off a bit, I find (unless you are lucky enough to meet someone with exactly the same tendencies).

Your friend was being a bit unhelpful virtually ordering you to talk more. When someone's shy or an introvert that's not always easy. If your friend knows you well and knows you find this sort of situation daunting, she could have tried to bring you into the conversation herself, or discreetly asked another nice member of the group to do so.

Of course in AIBU terms YABVVU to name the actitivies you did (which sound great fun btw) rather than coyly referring to a "hobby"!

If a book starts rambling and going into this much detail I stop reading too

So you're a bloke too, @pxseyocto ?

We even shared a group hug towards the end which was kind of wholesome, even said we loved each other.

Do men do this?

I had no idea men forensically analysed their interactions with same aged peers like this. It's been a revelation.

Yes, you're the issue, because quite frankly if you can write war and peace over one interaction, you're obviously hard work, sorry.

Anyway, yes, it's overused on MN but I do think you might be ND

We kind of broke the ice after that and us guys started talking a bit more as a group with me too. We even shared a group hug towards the end which was kind of wholesome, even said we loved each other.

After just meeting? That's very strange!

It sounds like your best friend at university expected you to be able to get their whole friend group in to rock climbing free, but this didn't work out. Was the friend just using you? How well do you know them?

Are you in your first year at university? I'd join some clubs and societies of your own rather than this one-it is causing you a great deal of angst if this was two months ago.

I’m going to join in the ND bandwagon here. I assumed you were female and was going to suggest researching ASD in girls and women. If you are male I wonder if some of that would apply anyway if you are good at masking.

Esentially it is a way of being kinder to yourself if you think you might have ND traits and you think about how to manage them or even embrace them.

The guys kindly invited you to the MMA but you just forgot and it's no big deal. But every single little thing they did, or didn't do, to include you, you analyse in great details. At least they tried to invite you individually to something else to say we think of you as more than friend's friend and you couldn't even start a conversation.

I used to be painfully shy myself, but it came a point when I had to say I'm gaining nothing from keeping quiet and not getting involved. So I thought they are all just humans too, I can do this and it only took a couple of weeks of consistently starting conversations with strangers, like I like your top where did you get it and silly little things and I then forgot what I used to be nervous about. Please give it a try!

Had to give up half way through but got the gist. Hard to tell who was at fault or to what extent. Maybe lesson is just to be cheery and chatty as well as being a good listener in new situations. Top tip. People love to talk about themselves or to have authentic praise. If you are struggling ask about them or if doing an activity when merited comment that was a great climb. That often breaks the ice and that way you aren’t over analysing. Chalk it down to experience.

Kindly, you're not the main character, and you sound a bit entitled. Plus wildly overthinking this.

Yes, they know each other and they'll feel more comfortable with each other. How do you know that they're not shy or whatever too? So why do you expect them to do the work to start conversations with you, when they are there with existing friends who they feel more comfortable with, and most of them don't know you, didn't invite you and don't owe you anything? They're probably open to making friends (most people are), but it's entitled to expect them to put in more effort than you are - they're happy with their friends, and you're the one feeling like an outlier, so you're the one needs to step up.

If you want to make friends, it's usually necessary to be more (even artificially) outgoing to start with, especially if you're with a big group. If that doesn't work for you, try inviting people to meet you 121 or in small groups if you're not comfortable in bigger ones.

Instead of being offended at everything, try taking it that your friend means things kindly, and was suggesting to you how you might be included more. You don't have to go with her suggestions, but you also don't have to look for ways to be offended, she's just a different human with a different perspective to you.

Well, I just did, so you're wrong there.

OP, I knew how your post was likely to go down on AIBU but many elements of this anecdote really resonated with me. It took me back to my uni days when I was a shyer/quieter (though always friendly) person and found a lot of people unfriendly. In hindsight I think they wrongly interpreted my quietness as aloofness/snobbishness and used to leave me out a lot/not make any effort to get to know me, and I'm wondering if this is what happened to you, but I think the others (including your friend) treated you quite shittily tbh - even if they were reading you incorrectly I don't think it's any excuse for how they behaved.

Looking back on my own experiences I'd definitely suggest making the first move conversationally, to seem interested in people (though not necessarily this particular bunch as they sound pretty juvenile and cliquey!) - I don't know if this applies to you at all, but I wasn't really brought up to ask people questions about themselves (my mum has this big thing about it being 'nosy') and until it dawned on me as an adult that it's normal to do so, I found it harder to make friends, presumably as they thought I wasn't interested in them.

Depending how old you all are, it may also be worth bearing in mind that your contemporaries' social skills may not be very developed yet either. In this particular instance it definitely doesn't sound like the odd dynamic was all down to you, in fact I think it's mostly on them for being weird with you. Sounds like they have some growing up still to do. Just my thoughts, but hope they're of some help.

@pxseyocto did you even apologise for missing the martial arts thing and ask for their numbers for the next time?

I got bored half way through tbh they invited you , they tried, you didn't try making
conversation with them ,( you may have done later but couldn't get through the wall of text sorry )

Did you apologize for not going to the MMA?

I read it so no-one else has to.

AMA.

This is just ai generated nonsense. Ignore.

Couldn't agree more, especially re the extrovert/introvert thing! I wish someone had spoken the sentiments in your final paragraph to me when I was at uni.

Not Speaking like this creates emotional labour for others.