Was I the problem in this group?

[pxseyocto]

I have a friend at university who I’m pretty close with, probably my closest uni friend.

She recently got into archery society, found a friend group and invited me to go rock climbing with them in November. I was pretty excited since I thought it’d be good to make some friends. Once I met them there were two guys and three girls including my good friend. I shook hands with the guys and said hello to everyone, but it was initially sort of awkward since we’d thought I’d be able to get them into their first session for free (as I’d signed up there the year before and the friend mentioned something like if an existing member brings along friends they get to go free). However that didn’t work and we all had to pay individually for a session. So it was off to a bad start but I moved past and got to climbing. I didn’t really talk to the girls as I was pretty shy, we just waited for the guys to change and then we all went to climb.

I noticed from then on, that the group was mostly talking among themselves. We all had goes at climbing the same wall and when it was my turn they did give me tips and answer my questions, but apart from small talk and a few sentences they didn’t talk to me much. I could tell they were all comfortable with each other and I was kind of the outlier there, and I thought that was normal since obviously I’d just met them. I mainly kind of followed them around and had goes at climbing or pointing out which walls to do, but was mostly talking to the friend I knew already.
At one point we all got to climb one wall and I was kind of struggling at the end, when they helped me out and one of the guys pulled me up to get to the top with them. It was good and we had a sort of jokey conversation on the way down the ladder as to who should go before who.

An hour or so of climbing and one girl had to leave. I followed shortly after since I was meeting with another friend. When I was saying goodbye we got into a small conversation with the friend and the two guys. They said they were doing a boxing/mma session the next day and if I wanted to come, and I was kind of shy since it would be only me and the two guys, but I said I could and that I’ll see how things go tomorrow. I shook hands with the guys and said goodbye to them and the friend also. Not a great start but it wasn’t too bad as it was the first time meeting.

The next day I think I completely forgot about the boxing/MMA event, but I didn’t get the guys’ numbers or anything and the friend didn’t even follow up about it so I didn’t end up going, not that big of a deal.
I didn’t really expect to see them after that but I didn’t have any harsh feelings towards them, just that they were mostly talking among themselves.

A week or so later, I was eating by myself on a bench outside on campus when I saw the friend with the same group walking by. The friend didn’t see me, but the others pointed out “hey isn’t that your friend” to her, after which she came back and spoke to me. She asked what I was doing alone and I said I was just eating at my regular spot to chill by myself after lessons.

I asked where they were going and she said to an arcade, so I figured let me try and be social and asked if I could come along. She said sure and we followed right after them as they’d gone quite a bit ahead of us while we were talking. I think that in the moment I was happy they recognised me and stopped to say hi, which I took as a good sign that we broke the ice and they were comfortable with me now, so that’s why I got so confident and wanted to go with them.
As me and the friend caught up to her group though, I could tell the vibe was off again and remembered what happened at climbing before and how they mostly spoke to each other and I was the obvious outlier. I realised it’ll probably be the same now so I’d have to try extra hard to talk first, and regretted getting too confident and asking her to join them.

My guess would turn out correct as on the way there they were again mostly speaking among themselves. One of the guys who was also there the week before seemed kind of upset and wasn’t really talking to anyone either, just following quietly at the back like me. I felt kind of awkward and just kept walking along with them. We got to the train and we kind of split up in the carriage with the other guy and the girls in a large group and me, the friend I knew well and the guy who was upset were standing outside of the group, so I was talking to the friend I knew from before. She then told me to go talk to the rest and why I was just standing by myself. I don’t remember how I responded but it was probably trying to defend myself and saying the other guy wasn’t talking much either.

With him though, I noticed that the girls and other guy realised he was kind of upset and asked him if he was okay trying to find out wha was wrong, to which he kind of shrugged them off. With me though, I was just there standing around or following like a sheep as they were again, keeping and talking amongst themselves. I don’t blame them as they knew the guy well and it probably wasn’t normal for him to not talk much, while they barely knew me and had barely spoken to me before.

So back to the train and the friend telling me to talk more. I think at the end she even asked why I was there if I wasn’t gonna talk, to which I took offense. That kinda killed my mood and I saw her as being kind of blunt, saying I might as well go home at that point. I don’t think I’d ever say that to her or any friend of mine if they were left out in my friend group, rather ask them to talk or be fine with them talking to me to at least not be by themselves.

We got out of the station and the way towards the arcade was pretty much the same, them talking amongst themselves and me following around listening. What she said didn’t help me socialise any more at all, probably made me feel more stressed and I wanted to leave at that point but I felt awkward saying it and had no idea how to get myself out so I just stayed. At one point we stopped as some of them had to use the bathrooms so it was me, the friend and the two guys. I stood around quietly agin as the guys weren’t really saying anything to me, and the friend tried again breaking the ice by reintroducing us to each other and telling us to speak and say something and not make it awkward. One of the guys then said “I tried, just letting you know I’ve tried” and the other who was previously quiet and upset said “just let him smile” or something along the lines of that, because I wasn’t saying anything but smiling and walking with them. I still find that rude and backhanded, I think the first guy was trying to say he tried talking to me to no avail, but he hadn’t said a single word to me that whole journey there and I know for a fact if he spoke to me I would’ve carried on a conversation, so no he hadn’t “tried” at all. It really pissed me off even to this day but I didn’t say anything there and then.
I don’t know if the second guy was trying to defend me or make fun of me by saying to let me just smile.

The others then came back and we resumed walking to the arcade. One of the girls actually started a conversation with me then, asking me what I study. I answered and asked what she did etc, asked about archery and commented on her climbing from the week before. So I can socialise and have a conversation, it’s just I need the other person to either start it or just engage with me in the first place. We spoke until we got to the arcade, then they all started talking about who would pay on the card machine as we needed an arcade card with prepaid points inside it to go on the games and machines.

Anyway, we play a few first games and again it was mostly them competing with each other and talking, with me saying something here and there or being given the turn to play. I then spoke to the friend again, who again told me to walk up to the others and talk to them. I got a bit defensive as I was still bitter about her previous comment about why did I come if I wasn’t gonna talk, so I tried to tell her my point of view - that they weren’t talking to me either and that a conversation goes both ways, not just me trying to start convos to no avail while they mostly talk amongst each other and I’m just there outcasted. I wasn’t really keen to go up to them as it would seem like I’m begging to be inserted into the group, but I was confident to have a conversation if one of them included me like the girl who started talking to me on the way there and I reciprocated on.

After that, a third guy arrived who was also a friend of theirs already, and he was actually much nicer. After I said hi to him and we played some games he would turn to me and start conversations with me, ask me about what I do and try to include me or talk to me. That’s when things got better, I was talking to him but also the others if they were nearby or joining in, and we eventually partnered up with the guy for a game where you race with a partner, and competed against them in other games as well. We kind of broke the ice after that and us guys started talking a bit more as a group with me too. We even shared a group hug towards the end which was kind of wholesome, even said we loved each other. So the third guy coming and talking to me helped me bloom a bit like a butterfly and show that I can be talkative when the others are open to include me or initiate.

That was most of it, we went home after that and even the second guy who previously said to let me just smile was telling me a story about their group chat and just funny small talk in general. We all ended up splitting as we took different ways home, and I said bye to everyone. I later saw one of the girls at the end who happened to be going the same way home as me and we spoke about university and stuff until I got off the train.

That was around 2 months ago now, but I just wanted to ask on here if I was really the issue by not talking a lot or if a lot of you would’ve done the same as me, if maybe the vibes were off and if there’s any truth in what I said about a conversation going both ways, not just me the outsider trying to initiate with the already-friends in the group.
Another friend who I asked said I should talk to them and put myself out there and not be quiet especially as they already knew each other well.

Am I also being unreasonable to get upset at the friend’s comment about how I shouldn’t have come if I wasn’t going to talk? The whole group was mainly talking among themselves and I felt like an outlier just being there unable to insert myself into the convo. They weren’t really acknowledging me either or talking to me. Is it unreasonable to expect anyone to try and talk to me then?
I still find that comment kind of blunt from her.
Also the comments from the two guys before we got to the arcade, one who said he “tried” (when he really didn’t at least from my perspective, he was just talking to the girls he knew already and the second guy, barely acknowledging me), and the second who told her to just let me smile.

Do I need to improve my social skills of approaching people and starting conversations, or is it normal to keep quiet and not be keen to integrate if they mainly keep talking among themselves? Or maybe our vibes were just off and I don’t happen to click with them in general?

I read it all, and I think you did OK. It sounds like your friend is a bit too concerned about how you come across, but that's her problem. If you are at University you are probably all quite young and still finding your feet as regards friendship groups etc. Don't overthink things, try to be yourself, if you are a quiet person, that's OK. It sounds like the person who said 'I tried' is struggling too, and your friend was being pushy with him as well.

But I think the original friend was making an effort to include OP, they stopped to talk to them and asked why they were alone

Someone told me a thing that's very simple but true Op, they said to find a friend you have to be a friend _ meaning you have to make others feel welcome and wanted, if you expect them to make all the effort they'll go away thinking you weren't interested in them. Next time ask them about themselves, don't wait for them to talk to you

I also gave up at the bench scene. It reads like pretty dire fiction. I'm guessing the OP is male with all of the "guys" handshaking?

I didn't get how they invited you climbing, but you were the one hoping to get everyone in for free.

Were the walls self-belaying? Otherwise you'd be in pairs? I don't think climbing really lends itself to conversation.

I think you're just a bit shy and socially anxious. Unfortunately being shy and anxious doesn't make for easy social interactions and your friend was frustrated with you for being awkward which made you even more so. I would knock big group hangs on the head if I were you and focus on meeting up with one or two friends at a time.

I think the guy saying he tried was referring to asking you to the boxing event and then you standing them up. Did you apologise? He was maybe waiting for you to acknowledge that before making more effort with you. That was an easy conversation starter for you " sorry I couldnt make the boxing in the end, was it a good night?"

Don't worry @pxseyocto . Your friend was worried about her own status in the group as she brought you along. They all seem hard work and I wouldn't join them again. If I notice an outsider having a hard time to integrate a group setting I will take it upon myself to include the person by asking questions and making the person feel accepted and at ease. The absolutely last thing to do is to tell the person to "talk" and create an awkward vibe. Your friend doesn't have great social skills and/or she lacks empathy.

It’s always going to take time to gel with new people, but not every group will be a good fit, If you’re at uni, there must be other groups you could try?

University only started September/October and the new term just now - give OP a break, Bob! It’s more difficult for some ppl than others to make brand new friends far from home. The fact OP asked to be included would be a massive thing to a lot of ppl, I certainly wouldn’t have done this as a teenager and would still struggle several decades on, and from reading other threads many others would too!

Well I read it all OP and I had some mixed feelings. I would always go out of my way to include someone new to the group, and I would initiate conversation with them, so YANBU for feeling like that.

It sounds like you’re an introvert like me, and it takes effort for us to engage others.

My advice to you is that other people have different personalities and some people can be quite short with people who expect to be initiated or actively included. Or they may think you prefer to be quiet. Starting conversations is a skill you’re going to need throughout your life so, yes, to your question, I think you should practise your skills in approaching people and starting conversations.

So I can socialise and have a conversation, it’s just I need the other person to either start it or just engage with me in the first place.

To recap, you won’t always have this in life, so it’s time to nip this expectation in the bud.

they weren’t talking to me either and that a conversation goes both ways, not just me trying to start convos to no avail while they mostly talk amongst each other and I’m just there outcasted.

A conversation does go both ways, so they may have expected you to talk them too.

I wasn’t really keen to go up to them as it would seem like I’m begging to be inserted into the group, but I was confident to have a conversation if one of them included me like the girl who started talking to me on the way there and I reciprocated on.

Talking to them would not have been seen as begging. You need to change this mindset. It’s not easy for introverts to do, but it gets easier with practise.

This platform can be really harsh at times, I was reading and already knew what much of the comments were going to say regarding post length. Ignore them, some people love to have a go - if it's too long for you to read (especially if the poster is clearly quite sensitive or insecure) just move on to another post!

OP, you sound a bit like me when I was at uni. Really shy, nervous, wanted friends but didn't know how to do that whilst being so introverted. Eventually I realised nobody else is responsible for me, that I'm an adult now and I need to make my own way and put myself out there whether I'm uncomfortable or not. I ended up putting myself out there and finding likeminded people that I forced myself to put myself out with, and those people are still friends I see every year or so now nearly ten years on.

You will get there, but you need to have the mindset that nobody has a responsibility to you, if you want friends you need to strive for that yourself. You're an adult now, you'll thank yourself down the line! (Also - to think about this in so much detail 2 months on isn't good for you, not unless you try taking something productive from it, don't beat yourself up about this, learn from it and help yourself move forward)

I’m confused about the “going down the ladder” but after reaching the top. I climb. I’ve never seen a climbing wall with a ladder. You belay or climb back down. You don’t go to a ladder 🫤.

Just to add, I am at the other end of life as I am 75, I have never had a problem socialising, and was in a job where I talked to all kinds of people. I am widowed and although happy with my own company, I felt I needed to get out more. I joined a folk club, to get out one evening a week, and I have found it really difficult, as no one wants to speak to me! It's not age difference, as shockingly, it is a very elderly group of people, but no wonder no younger people join, if they have had the same experience as me. I am just pointing out that it's not always the person who feels left out, at fault.

Op with respect you sound so, so young. You are massively overthinking everything. Just be nice and friendly and yourself. And if you dont gel then see her separately and mix with others.

I reckon you're over thinking this. Understandable they chatted more to people they already knew than you. It takes time to build friendships

I see this a lot on MN. People chatting to their friends = must be a bitchy clique

I was reading until I got a feeling that the poster might be male, which put a different slant on lots of stuff. I then thought I should start again........

Thing is though that it's useful feedback to tell the OP that his post is too long, because it is an example of OP being too introspective and a little bit tedious. It's harsh to be sure but he/she does need to learn this lesson sooner or later. Nobody is as interested in his inner world as he is, and imposing long introspective screeds on strangers isn't good social behaviour. It's great to get your thoughts out but it's not great to ruminate too much on minutiae of your behaviour and thoughts.

I skimmed through the second half of your post because it was very long, but it doesn't sound like you did anything really wrong. It sounds like a bit of an awkward group and situation.

I think your friend was unkind to put you on the spot by asking why you weren't talking etc. - that was bound to make you feel self conscious, and it clearly made the others feel awkward too.

Overall it just sounds like these aren't people you gelled with. Not because you did anything wrong, just because not everyone is going to be your cup of tea. You're all young and finding your feet - don't worry about it. You'll make good friends in time.

Some very helpful comments there.

Re the length of the OP, he was trying to figure out precisely where he went wrong in a whole series of interactions, so I can see how he felt the need to give all the minutiae.

In future OP, if you want to be more succinct, chat gpt can do a summary of the main points in a matter of seconds.

I only twigged you were male round about para 5. It changes some things and helps explain the hand-shaking stuff.

@ShawnaMacallister I don't disagree with your viewpoint, but some of the comments don't explain that as kindly and with the reasoning you have. Just saying "I'm not reading all that" or whatever is just invalidating someone who is clearly quite young and is having a difficult time in their head. I agree with your points though, it's an important lesson to learn, others could display that in a kinder way.

This

They are an established group by the sound of it. Some people are better at trying to include new people than others but the newcomer needs to make effort too!

You have a whole bunch of people that you can get to know. Ask questions. Show interest. Their interests mainly lies in catching up with each other so it largely falls on you to make the effort.

Feeling awkward in a new group is normal but i think you need to work on talking to others, starting conversations etc. Its not fair to expect it of others when you don't expect it of yourself.

I’m not sure it’s attention spans. I can read pages of legislation no problem but that was just dull and repetitive - bloke goes out with group who already know each other, he’s a bit odd (e.g. shaking hands with men not women, which could be cultural - though still likely to be read as strange by the other people), doesn’t talk much. Randomly invites himself along another time and doesn’t talk, then spends two months thinking about it before writing it out in minute and boring detail. Have I got it?

In answer to the question, yes, it is you. You’re not part of that group and are unlikely to become so. But that’s ok. Try to find your own friends not connected to an existing friend, don’t shake hands in informal situations, or if you must, shake with everyone. If you ask someone where they’re going and they tell you without inviting you, don’t ask to tag along. Stop thinking about it all so much.

You do sound like you’re quite socially anxious and tend to ruminate and get into cycles of overthinking. That you’re still going over this several weeks later is a bit of a concern.

I was very socially anxious in my teens and twenties. Once I knew people well I would be myself and chatty etc but with anyone new I’d clam up and just go blank. Unless they drew me into a conversation I just couldn’t think what to say and then I’d worry about that and then it would get worse.

Try not to worry, you can’t click with everyone and you will naturally end up developing friendships over time with those who you feel comfortable with.

maybe build up a mental list of friendly conversation starters to help you out in moments when you want to push yourself.

also there have been times where I’ve pushed myself to say “sorry, I’m no good at small talk, I’m a bit shy / socially awkward” and even just saying that has made people aware that I’m not being unfriendly (as that’s how it can look otherwise).

Didn't read all of it. But you are obviously struggling with this group. You really can't force friendship.
Go off and find another tribe that is more suitable for your personality.