I know it’s not all men, but…

[Beguiledbeehive]

…is it all men?

My husband of 20 years has inspired this bitter outlook on life. I discovered he’s been a liar and a cheat since before we were married. Visiting brothels since his teens, cheating, sexting, extreme porn use, lying all that time. Married me, we had kids, we had what I believed and looked from the outside an ideal life.

I had no idea, literally none. And I am not a stupid person, I am not a pushover. I counted my blessings every day. Life was good… so I thought.

He showed himself to be a supportive loving husband and dad at every turn and I never suspected a thing. He nursed me through cancer, prayed for my recovery, he gave support to his family and mine through many difficult times. He was the friend you wanted on your side as he’d do anything to help.

Anyone who knows him thought he was loyal, reliable, would do anything for his family. Honestly he’s the last person you’d expect. He’s had us all fooled.

Which is what’s got me thinking, if he’s capable, is anyone? There are so many women on here who find out these awful things about their partners, who’d never expect it.
We all have friends, know people, learn about people who you think you know who shock you with their secret behaviour. And they’re only the ones we find out about. How many just never get caught?

I realise I’m scorned and bitter, but if I’d read this post a year ago I’d have thought “No, not my husband, never.” But here we are.

How do you ever trust again? I don’t think I could. I don’t think I want to. I had a boyfriend as a teen into early 20s who cheated but I thought that was young age behaviour. I was married to this man for over 20 years and it turns out I never really knew him. Everything we had was not enough. Why are (some?) men like this? And is it actually all of them? You think you know someone, but do you really?

Okay then

I must have led a charmed life. I’ve never known all these abusive/lying/cheating men. 🤷‍♀️

I think this idea that married women cheat in equal numbers is bollocks - particularly once kids come along. When would we find the time fgs?

The very last thing I would ever want in my life is an extra man, with all the ghastly sexual surprises that niche and/or violent porn has seemingly made compulsory in hetero relationships.

Sorry, I could’ve sworn I’d already covered this, I remember typing it but can’t see it now, so don’t know what happened there…

My phone had died and not backed up so I was using STBXH phone (which he was fine about) to find something on WhatsApp within a conversation between me and him. I typed in a particular word to search for the link I was looking for and that’s when a message to a sex worker came up. I then found a few more conversations he’d had with different women which were in his archived chats (I think he’d thought he’d deleted them), I confronted him and he told me a lot of things. However I’ll never really know the extent as I only know what he admitted to.

… that you’re aware of. There’s a dad at DC’s school who was recently arrested for stalking and assault. He was active on the school board, always friendly at the school gate. Softly spoken, slightly nerdy bloke with a PhD, involved in various local environmental charities.

The bit you're missing here is that they don't think that they're going to hurt anyone, because they don't think they'll ever get caught.

There are three types of people on this planet.

1. Those who are perfectly happy to cheat
2. Those who don't cheat because they have a moral objection to cheating
3. Those who don't cheat because they're aware of the consequences

My Dad was option 1. He didn't want to hurt my Mum, or me and my brother, he just thought he was clever enough to get away with it. Even after he got caught the 1st time, and the second time, and the third time, he still thought he was clever enough to get away with it this time. He's not that bright, my Dad.

I used to be option 1 as well, and now I'm option 3. I don't see anything inherently wrong with sex with multiple people, I don't particularly have a moral objection to having sex with someone else while in a relationship. And so, by the age of 22, I'd cheated on a few of my short term girlfriends. Unlike my Dad, I knew I was likely to get caught, and knew there would be consequences of that. But I didn't care enough about the consequences, none of the relationships were that serious, and they tended to be on the way out at the point I cheated. As it happened, I never did get caught, but it was probably only because I took the fact I'd cheated as a sign I should end the relationship I was in, rather than just coasting along with someone I didn't really care about.

And then I met DP, and shortly afterwards we had DD. And I fell properly, head over in love with both of them, and I haven't cheated on DP in the 20 years we got together. And don't get me wrong, I haven't really changed. I still find the idea that we should all limit ourselves to one sexual partner a bit daft. I don't have a fundamental inability to cheat, they I would to, for example, murdering someone. I'm still the same person fundamentally I was in my early 20's. The only thing that's changed are the stakes. I'm not unwilling to cheat, but I am unwilling to hurt DP, and DD, because I love them too much, and because hurting them would inevitably hurt me.

I'm effectively in the same position as my Dad. He loved his wife, he loved his kids, but he liked sex with other women. I am my fathers son. But because I'm my fathers son, I know what he didn't. That you can't get away with it. There is no perfect crime. So I don't cheat.

And then there's the final category, the ones who could never cheat, who find the concept objectionable, who are physically incapable of betraying their partner. The ones, like my cousin, who believed it was so impossible that they could ever cheat that they don't even realise when they start flirting with that guy in work, can't see that the constant texting is verging into an emotional affair, think that the kiss at the Christmas party was a stupid drunken mistake that will never happen again, and are utterly surprised and horrified that they could ever have done this when their husband finds out about the 2 year long affair.

Option 2 is a lie. Option 2 is dangerous. Everyone is capable of cheating, and telling yourself otherwise leads to complacency.

Yes, you really can’t know. That has been brought home to me a few times in recent years.

The headteacher at my DDs’ primary school was charged with sexual abuse whilst they were still there, and he received a prison sentence. He had seemed a lovely, friendly man so that was a shock.

Also, a good friend discovered that her H had been sexually abusing her teenage DD. The pastor of her church said she shouldn’t report it as it would bring ‘shame on the church’. He also said it must be her fault because she wasn’t a ‘good enough wife’. Both these men had seemed to be decent and caring. The pastor had been very supportive towards my vulnerable DB, so he was someone we liked and trusting.

I guess it was kind of a shock, but then again my F was considered as a pilar of the community as well. (Though tellingly no one was particularly shocked to hear the truth about him apart from my DM, sadly.)

@VimesandhisCardboardBoots

The fact that you believe there are 3 categories of people in the world, all of whom on some level want to shag around, illustrates the point people are making about men’s sex drives and correlated potential for duplicity.

Most of the women I know fall into these categories:

• people who genuinely only want to have sex with their partner and the idea of shagging someone else doesn’t ever occur to them and/or repels them.

• people who may not be ideologically committed to the sanctity of monogamy per se, but can’t be arsed with the faff of shagging around and definitely don’t have room for yet another needy person in their lives hassling them for sexual favours & also expecting them to be their mum

• people who would be perfectly happy if they never had to have sex again with anyone in their whole lives.

I think a lot of men but definitely not all. I have a few make friends and relatives I would say would never ever even consider treating anyone like that

I think you misunderstood my post. I didn't say everyone wants to shag around, I said everyone is capable of it. Plenty of people in my second category will go through life never finding out the set of circumstances that could lead them to have an affair. My cousin didn't want to have an affair, at least not at first.

And it's not just about sex either, there are plenty of emotional affairs that never get into physical territory. Not wanting sex doesn't mean you can't still cheat on and hurt your partner.

People in all three of your categories could fall into any of mine.

You have a very idealised, unrealistic view of women.

You won't get a balanced view on Mumsnet, it is very misandrist. I say this as a woman and a feminist!

Sure, you can’t ever predict with any certainty what people will do. But there are a whole lot of us out here with no space for ourselves in our lives, let alone any new people.

The idea that we might all be open to being swept off our feet by unpredictable passion in the right circumstances seems so laughably far from the workaday lived reality of most knackered mums I know.

• people who may not be ideologically committed to the sanctity of monogamy per se, but can’t be arsed with the faff of shagging around and definitely don’t have room for yet another needy person in their lives hassling them for sexual favours & also expecting them to be their mum

Oh gosh yes, I hear you!

I don’t think so - I am a woman and most of my friends are women. But most of us are burnt out, sandwich-generation caregivers, and we have seen it all, and we are fully disabused of any youthful romantic notions, and our most transgressive fantasy is to be left the fuck alone 🤣.

Testosterone overrides the thin veneer of civilised moralising that has only been a recent facet of human development. For hundreds of thousands of years testosterone has driven men to bonk anyone they can. This is nature’s way of ensuring the survival of the species.

Nature is more powerful than a moral. Pitted against each other, millennia of evolutionary development and fine-tuning wins, every time

Men like your dh are sociopaths imo.

People who are pathological liars and lead double lives have some kind of personality disorder.

I knew someone like this too - only ever met one in my life. Seemed like the nicest man I’d ever met in my life, the type who’d do anything for anyone - it was all an act. He was a wolf in sheep’s clothing and it was so shocking to find out the extent of his lies. I also couldn’t believe how he didn’t think he’d get found out but I do think he was seriously damaged in some way.

He fit the tick list 100% for being a covert narcissist.

It just wouldn’t even occur to normal people to lie about almost everything and lead a double life - it’d be exhausting for one!

Also - just to add if we continue to look at this trough the clinical lens of nature - this is why you often get the pattern of older men having affairs with younger women half their age. They are of prime childbearing age & will carry forward his genes if he mates with them. It’s really simple once you strip away the moralising. So obvious

@Dollyfloss Men like your dh are sociopaths imo. People who are pathological liars and lead double lives have some kind of personality disorder.

After me finding out what I have and his reaction to it all, I suggested he look up the definitions of sociopath and the symptoms of a BPD. He said after Googling, “Did you actually read those things you told me to look at?… Didn’t you think it sounded more like it was describing yourself than me?” Erm, no, FFS

Sorry - one more point. This is also why men can love their spouse but still shag around. They can compartmentalise the two. Love and sex can be completely separate in a man’s mind. For a man, the drive to spread his seed as far and as wide as possible makes him seek sex, with whoever is available. He might also be happily in love with his wife. He doesn’t really “see” any issue with it because he doesn’t love the people he’s shagging around with. That’s just his programming at play again

Yes I think it is most men.

I truly believe that men and women view sex differently. I believe a man can be in love with his wife and have sex with another woman and view it as just sex - no emotions , not falling out of love with their wife, not wanting the marriage to end . I think it’s a primal thing. I think a man can very easily have sex with a woman he feels absolutely nothing for and isn’t even really attracted to. I do not believe that a man having sex with another woman always means they do not love her.

The betrayal , the fact they have betrayed her and hurt someone they care about - going through with that - that’s different and it’s a messed up idea of love .

its not right , its disgusting - but I do believe men can seperate emotion from it and become very self centred and tunnel vision about it. When they say “ It meant nothing “ I believe that.

The woman deserves better but I do not believe that the second man cheats he does not love his wife anymore.

I am talking about sex here . Just sex. I do not believe a man can have an ongoing affair with dates and affection etc - a secret relationship - and still love his wife .

Absolute rubbish. Theories like this are why some men are allowed to get away with this kind of shit ‘oh I couldnt help myself it was my natural testosterone causing me to spread my seed far and wide in the youngest women I could find willing to shag me’.

These men are capable of holding themselves back for long enough to find a way to do it all secretly, they’re capable of restraining their natural urges to hit things that make them annoyed if those things are capable of hitting them back harder, they’re capable of pushing past the overwhelming testosterone in order to pretend to be caring and considerate when it suits them. They do know right from wrong and do understand that they are causing hurt and pain to their spouse/partner and can prevent themselves from causing that pain. They CHOOSE not to.

I was going to make the same comment about his friends. In our friendship group their was one guy who was into cheating but the other men gradually eased him out and we seldom see him now.i think the general view was it was incredibly disrespectful and a sign of someone they couldn't trust.

Sometimes, I wonder if all the partners that are thought of as loyal, etc, are having or will have affairs? But that's probably the cynic in me. My absent father cheated, I've been cheated on, my partner's brother cheated in his 3 marriages, my friend's husband cheated, & on & on.

The brass neck!! 😮