I know it’s not all men, but…

[Beguiledbeehive]

…is it all men?

My husband of 20 years has inspired this bitter outlook on life. I discovered he’s been a liar and a cheat since before we were married. Visiting brothels since his teens, cheating, sexting, extreme porn use, lying all that time. Married me, we had kids, we had what I believed and looked from the outside an ideal life.

I had no idea, literally none. And I am not a stupid person, I am not a pushover. I counted my blessings every day. Life was good… so I thought.

He showed himself to be a supportive loving husband and dad at every turn and I never suspected a thing. He nursed me through cancer, prayed for my recovery, he gave support to his family and mine through many difficult times. He was the friend you wanted on your side as he’d do anything to help.

Anyone who knows him thought he was loyal, reliable, would do anything for his family. Honestly he’s the last person you’d expect. He’s had us all fooled.

Which is what’s got me thinking, if he’s capable, is anyone? There are so many women on here who find out these awful things about their partners, who’d never expect it.
We all have friends, know people, learn about people who you think you know who shock you with their secret behaviour. And they’re only the ones we find out about. How many just never get caught?

I realise I’m scorned and bitter, but if I’d read this post a year ago I’d have thought “No, not my husband, never.” But here we are.

How do you ever trust again? I don’t think I could. I don’t think I want to. I had a boyfriend as a teen into early 20s who cheated but I thought that was young age behaviour. I was married to this man for over 20 years and it turns out I never really knew him. Everything we had was not enough. Why are (some?) men like this? And is it actually all of them? You think you know someone, but do you really?

IMO all men until about 65 have a massive sex drive. Most contend with constant masturbation, probably using their phones, and can maintain a normal life along with the rest of them.

But some need the thrill of actual physical contact with a person or persons other than their long term partner, and some have a real thing for the transactional nature of using prostitutes.

A few years ago I was on holiday with a group of friends - one of them was a CEO and had an ostensibly great, long marriage. His wife hadn’t joined us that time, and one night we were on our way home from a bar, and he just announced to my DH that he was going to a brothel on the way back and he’d see us in the morning, as if it was a completely normal thing to do!

Based on my experience, it's an accurate description, not a generalisation.

Every man I have been with has cheated or been abusive in some way. I have had some friends and family outright tell me that I picked wrong or I was as bad (I fucking wasn't) but mostly that I couldn't possibly let the actions of these represent a whole sex.

Why not? Have we not evolved for millennia for pattern recognition and to learn from our mistakes. It personally goes against my evolution to ever voluntarily entangle myself with something that could overpower me, and, in 100% of my experiences, cause massive pain and damage to me.

My XH was one of those who absolutely never, ever would cheat - he did. I think there were some red flags towards the end in retrospect but there hadn't been for the previous years. Posters saying 'you must have known subconsciously' really need to read the fucking room. It's magical thinking and victim blaming. I do love this website and significant swathes of younger women on SM educating about 'the script' and red flags but when you are invested (in love, finances, children, time etc.) they are so easy to dismiss or ignore.

On reflection, I really don't think monogamy and living together in couples is sustainable for men or rewarding for women. It worked well enough for men when they could abuse and cheat but the woman could NOT leave (or they didn't abuse or cheat because they feared religious consequences) but things are different now and they health, safety and happiness of women and children is so often compromised by partners unwilling to be what is required in a long term, healthy, monogamous relationship/family.

Among friends and family, I could count 2 couples I was genuinely sure were happy and, when I met up with one of those couples over xmas, he treated me to the story of a recent stag he had been on where the groom had contracted conjunctivitis after licking whipped cream from a sex worker's anus in front of all of them. Granted, this man said he hadn't engaged, but he was there, he watched, probably chipped in and found it hilarious. His wife just rolled her eyes in a 'what are men like' kind of way.

One couple still seem great but ask me again in 5 years. Or maybe 1 year.

I was so confident that my husband would never do the things he was secretly doing. He wouldn’t do those things to me and our kids, and he just wasn’t ’that kind of person’
I was never smug or cocky about it, I’d never show off that “oh MY husband would never act in such a way”, I was just so certain of it within myself. How wrong was I? How spectacularly wrong. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, nobody would ever have expected this of him.
How do you get over this level of betrayal?

@RamsaySnowsSausage What a sad state of affairs hey? I’ve brought kids into this messed up fucking world. I don’t even know how to guide them with relationships anymore.
Glad you’re away from the situation you were in- sorry you went through that but I hope you’re happy now ❤️

I despair in thinking it’s pretty damn close to being all men.

It’s a huge generalisation

It really isn’t a “minority” of men….

I'm so sorry OP. How did you find out?

Not all men but a lot, your situational awareness will never be the same after this.

OP a good friend of mine discovered to her horror that her apparently lovely husband was having sex workers come to their house while she was out, and sometimes even when she was asleep in bed upstairs. He appeared to be the ideal family man - did half the childcare, cooked and cleaned, mild-mannered, feminist, middle-class, educated, left wing politics, professional job. Everyone thought they were the ideal couple. I knew the husband since we were at school together, and had always thought of him as a lovely, quiet, deep-thinking, caring family man, the kind you’d love to marry. Except it turned out he spent years cheating on his wife with prostitutes, running up debt and lying to everyone!

I couldn’t believe it when she told me. I could have sworn he must be a good man. And if he was secretly like that, how could I ever know what other men are really like?

And sadly I knew lots of women growing up whose husbands were secretly or not-so-secretly abusive, often very much at odds with the way they liked to present socially to others. Sadly I’ve known too many “nice men” who appeared lovely, but behind closed doors had nasty tempers, hit and pushed, were verbally and emotionally abusive, and just generally shitty to their wives and families. Too many not to think that you never really know what a man is like, and that many or even most of them have abusive tendencies. Male temper and violence is widespread.

I’m never sure whether to trust men who say, “oh yeah all the other lads were doing <insert vile activity> but I was just watching…”

@JHound for some women all men do cheat

Why would anything be ''all men'' is there anything ''all women'' do or does it just apply to men where every single man on the planet is the same?

It's certainly not all men, but then you're only married to one of them, so it doesn't really matter what all the rest are like, just yours. From what I gather your husband sounds fairly typical of the men who do use sex workers - they tend to lead a double life leaving absolutely no trace. A) because they're very experienced at it, b) because that's the extra 'discretion' that you get from using a sex worker over regular cheating/affairs.

A friend of mine went on a long stag weekend to Amsterdam. They all had a bit of a giggle walking through the red light district, but none of them went any further than looking in the window displays. Except for one bloke, he spent the entire time in and out of the brothels. Every time they looked around, he'd slipped away to visit another. None of the others could understand or comprehend his appetite, nevermind his behaviour.

But most significantly, none of the other blokes had the slightest clue that he was like this before said stag do. And many of them have known him for years, they all grew up together. Back in his home life, he comes across as a total gent, pillar of the community type, apparently happily married with kids, good job etc. His wife clearly has no clue. But that weekend in Amsterdam clearly wasn't his first rodeo, just an opportunity to over indulge in the terrible behaviour that he's got used to.

In my experience, very few men use sex workers (maybe 1 in 50, or even less), but those who do, tend to be absolutely prolific. The vast majority of men think it's disgusting.

That particular poster always pops up to defend how great men are. Honestly, not worth your breath pointing out the obvious truth to them…

Its funny, I never thought in a million years that my ex would cheat, like others have said, I was so confident it would never happen, and it did.

I always thought I'd be a strong kick him to the kerb woman that'd kick a partner straight out, but honestly? I haven't, and I know if it wasnt for the gay thing that I would have taken him back.

Its been a shocking realisation about myself doing that. We have young kids and it has been easier for them, but I hate myself for not kicking him straight out.

He also said that cheating was a deal breaker for him in the early days of our relationship, maybe thats why I was so confident he wouldn't. I was actually more scared that I'd get drunk and kiss someone else over him doing it.

Oh, and I don't think the majority of men don't use escorts. I played a male dominated sport in my early 20s and out of 20 or so of my teammates only 1 was openly doing it. It certainly opened my eyes into the behaviour of men though

This. No way do women at their worst cause as much pain and damage as this supposed minority of men (it’s way more than that. Way more).

Did he ever give an explanation OP? “Sex addiction”? 🙄

Goodness THIS!

I think it’s worse now as I am older and men in my age bracket tend to be coupled but from my early 30s the number of men who would hit on me and turn out to be married / partnered was astronomically high.

I have actually become really good at spotting the signs of a man trying to turn me into TOM without my knowledge / consent.

I think it’s all of them but some never get caught.

you keep telling yourself that.

Because it is many many many men. So many men. They are sons, husbands, brothers, nephews, uncles, priests, police officers, doctors.

And the sooner the "oh you are such a man hater, it's nowhere near all men" or the "women are as bad" bollocks stops, the sooner we can address the problem.

Some women are so desperate they will put up with anything to say they have a man.

Shame the fucker once you’re divorced. Tell his family, his employer, his vicar - everyone.

It’s not impossible at all to contract genital herpes from oral sex but your husband was likely lying.