To struggle to understand practicing non-believers

[Relient]

Hi, first of all this isn’t intended on a personal attack on how any believes of lives there life. I also want to make clear I’m not talking about people who participate in the cultural aspects of a religious holiday but not the religious, it’s about a very specific belief system which I’m struggling to understand.

This year my son began dating someone new, she is early 20s Portuguese and Italian. We aren’t spending Christmas with them but we met up with them today.

In meeting up with them I learnt a lot about her beliefs, again I’m not judging them or saying my inability to understand makes her belief system wrong. I’m merely now thinking about it in a more abstract sense inspired by what I learned.

His girlfriend is what she called an agnostic Catholic or practicing non-believer. She said that she doesn’t believe with full faith there is a god but doesn’t believe it’s impossible for a god to exist, she said that she bases her non-belief on what is currently proven as fact and her lack of commitment to there definitely not being a god on the fact that humanity is ever continuing to learn and discover new things, so she can rationalise that there may be a time where a god could be proven, even if as of yet that isn’t possible.

She then explained that she goes to church during Holy Week, several times around Christmas and any time where she is feeling like she needs some comfort in life, however she doesn’t consciously keep to any rules, confess etc.

I asked why she still goes to church here in London, when she doesn’t really believe and she said she felt the sense of community, tradition, reflection and humility it gives her.

As an atheist I’ve never really been able to understand this view. I fully understand why people believe and are devout, believe and adapt the practices to suit their life, believe but don’t practice and of course I understand people who don’t believe and don’t practice or those who don’t believe but accept the cultural elements of the religious festivals and celebrate them. I just really can’t wrap my head around someone who doesn’t believe, is incredibly articulate and philosophical about why they don’t believe but then chooses to practice anyway, especially in the absence of family being a driving force.

Can anyone here enlighten me? AIBU to struggle to understand this? Is it obvious and I’m somehow subconsciously missing it?

This is what I say to DS2 who is atheist. I do ask him to come to church with me at Easter and Christmas because whether he believes in God or not, its part of my culture and therefore his. And as @BlooomUnleashed said, it is so entwined I dont know where one end and the other begins. My thinking is that, if at any time in his life and wherever he is in the world, he feels like he needs a place to go, he has the option to just go into a Catholic church and just be part of something familiar. The belief in God is almost the least important thing. My DH was brought up by atheists. His mother is Jewish but because she refused to entertain even cultural Judaism that part is lost forever really which I think is a bit of a shame. DH will say he is Jewish ( which genetically he is of course, as are our children) but the only thing they know about Judaism they learnt at school.

It s ok to enjoy the rituals and not believe in a god
She explained
the sense of community, tradition, reflection and humility it gives her.

Thank you everyone, I wasn’t trying to be intentionally dense. The only religion I grew up exposed to (Baptist) has a fairly heavy focus on belief, my parents were atheist and would have claimed it to be rude to attend church if I didn’t believe.

I suppose I also struggle with the fact that she takes communion which I thought belief was central to?

I do understand that you can enjoy church without believing, but she seems to allow it into her life quite heavily without believing and that I understand less.

Good morning! Merry Christmas to you.
Just nipped back about the mention of Communion. This I’d see as pushing it a bit, personally. (For Catholics, and ‘atheist Catholics’; can’t speak re other religions)
Communion is a sacrament requiring certain commitments of its participants, and faith is the Number One.
Not only is partaking of it while not accepting its rôle and central meaning an affront to the faithful in terms of trivialising the sacrament, it would be to use a central spiritual tenet of the faith as a form of performance or fancy dress, a very different category of personal exploration from enjoying the sense of peace and respite one finds in a church, or the beauty of religious art and poetry, and the sense of a community among a congregation in prayer.

I wonder how she explains her reason for taking Communion, intellectually. (Not in self-defence; it’s a genuine enquiry about her position in this regard)

I say all that above as a staunch non-believer all my adult life, though brought up a Catholic, and am very surprised by my instinctive reaction of shock at this!

I did ask her reason and she said that she felt comfortable still taking communion as to her understanding and interpretation she wasn’t breaking any real rules. She understood that what the church asks you to believe and follow don’t agree with her and the official ruling would be she shouldn’t take communion.
She then explained that she still believes in the values, morality etc. of the Catholic Church and she believes in Jesus as a figure for moral guidance. She also said she struggles to believe every Catholic especially in more heavily Catholic countries actually fully believes and they still take communion so it doesn’t make her feel bad or as though she is making a mockery of the church. She said if she actively disagreed with Catholic values or rejected Jesus even as a symbolic figure then she would feel less willing to take communion.

You're coming from a very black and white perspective that I think a lot of atheists do. Which is fine. You do you. You're not really hiding your sense of superiority very well though.

I was raised Catholic but would say I'm agnostic. I go to church with my mom when I'm with her (we live in different countries), it makes her happy, and the ritual is comforting to me. I don't believe, but don't not believe, which probably makes no sense to you and that's fine.

Either way, it's very personal and cultural - why are you picking apart her beliefs (or lack thereof)? I take it you don't like her very much?

As an atheist, I understand this. I would have liked to believe. I was raised to attend church, and I see the benefits of belonging to a community. I find the thought of an after life, and of a purpose to life comforting.

Unfortunately, there is no part of my brain that can admin even the slightest possibility of any of it being true.

I like her very much, I’m not so much picking it apart as trying to understand. She speaks about it quite a lot and id like to understand as it matters to her.

It sounds as if she values what she gets from the aspects of religion which are meaningful to her at present, while keeping an open mind about the bits she's not sure about.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, and I mustn’t detain you today.
Quick reaction is that I know damn well it makes no difference to me, or to anyone else on Earth, and it’s entirely her affair yet still, I feel this goes too far and she has greatly undermined herself with her explanation.
She's entered mere rôle play with this, and just sounds like any other rather entitled cultural moocher, instead of a person with a soulful response to sanctity despite a lack of faith in a deity.
If she can hijack such a hallowed part of a faith with a shrug of the shoulders, she isn’t a serious person at all, and it’s all just a performance, an indulgence of self-regard.

Harrumph! So, having sounded off like an affronted bishop, I’ll leave you in peace! 🎄

I’m an atheist and find this pretty easy to understand. She was raised in the religion and is culturally a part of it, it brings her comfort and community. And her ramblings about there may be a God basically say… she wishes she believed in God but she can’t fully commit to the belief itself.

She wants to be religious but just isn’t. She takes communion in a desperate hope.

I think if you weren’t brought up in a catholic country it can be hard to imagine what a massive part of life it is - I grew up in Malta and every major festival involved the church in some way. It probably feels as normal to her to pop into a church, as us celebrating Christmas as non-believers does.

she said she felt the sense of community, tradition, reflection and humility it gives her

She's answered your question right there.

If people's lives are improved even in a small way by attending church then that's a good thing. No judgement here.

She sounds like a cracking potential daughter in law.

Generally I'd agree with everyone - she's explained it very clearly - if you are brought up in a faith, you can often find churches very calming places, that give you a real sense of peace - a place to think and feel connected. Prayer is a form of meditation after all (very few Christians really expect prayer to be answered, it's just a way of processing what's going on in your life, and learning to live alongside it).

Technically Catholics shouldn't take communion unless they believe it's actually Christ's body and blood and are in a state of grace (ie no mortal sins that haven't be atoned for) - but there will be v few Catholics on this earth who haven't done this at some point if not regularly. I'm guessing a lot don't literally believe in transubstantiation these days, for a start. So I can see why she doesn't think it's a big deal - Catholicism is rather the glam rock of Christianity, I always think.

At church last night they invited anyone who had been baptised in any denomination up for communion as it ‘can mean different things to everyone’. And if you wanted a blessing but weren’t baptised you were invited up for that. It was lovely.

Judaism is a religion of tradition, not belief so I don’t see any conflict in doing the rituals as an agnostic. I also have children so it’s important to me that they find some comfort and familiarity in the activities so they have that in their adult life if they need to call on it.

Rituals and rites are deeply reassuring for many people. There's the connection to community, to a shared history, and also a sense of stability in the repetition of it all.

I think it's very understandable.

Well technically you're right, but she's in bloody good company (several million on any given Sunday, and today, for sure).

I'm neither religious nor believing, but I live in a different European country which is more culturally religious than the UK and I have come to see it in a different way.

Here Christianity is taught as a set of common morals and ideals to refer back to as a community. So one can feel part of a Christian community while mainly trying to live by these ideals. The bible stories, ideas of God/Jesus/heaven/hell etc can be thought of as metaphors to illustrate a point rather than literal truth, and the priest/pastor/etc (I don't know all the roles properly) is sort of a counsellor/advisor type person who can help people think things through in terms of when they have a moral dilemma or don't know what is the right thing to do.

I think it's quite nice; it's not so much about judging people for getting things wrong, which is the thing I always found uncomfortable about religion. It's more about agreeing on a set of rules to live by and trying to help each other with that.

Thats one of the things I love about Judaism: that sense of following community tradition and heritage coming ahead of petty questions about doctrine which seem to plague Christianity.

I realise I may be trivialising this through ignorance but I really admire and almost envy Jewish people their ability to make faith important to people who have suspended their beliefs. It’s partly what makes it so powerful.

I’m an atheist but was brought up C of E, was christened and then baptized when I was older.
I don’t attend church and generally dislike a lot of what organised religion stands for.

I do like the community of a church, miss the sense of belonging and love a sing song. So I’ll go to a carol service or midnight mass happily. I would be respectful but possibly tipsy.

I don’t pray and I’d never take communion though, I think that’s a step too far. I don’t know why it makes me uncomfortable if I don’t believe but it does.

I think this all feels complex if you’ve been raised a religion and left it. That stuff hangs on even if you don’t want it to! The traditions and practices are comforting for some still.

I think if you believe, you take communion seriously. If you don’t, you don’t see the issue with taking it so do it anyway. When I used to go to Catholic Mass (as my kids went to catholic school), I’d take it, but it meant nothing.

I’ve never taken communion because I am not a believer (and not baptised), so to me it seems disrespectful to take a sacrament. I totally would if I had faith.

I was brought up Catholic but I wouldn't take communion because I'm not practicing but it can be a bit performative at times. I noticed my Dad (who also did not believe but was brought up Catholic) took communion at weddings and funerals of direct family members where he felt it was his duty to not embarrass the family by looking like an atheist - I was comfortable with being called an atheist.

Reading between the lines it does sound like there’s a small part of her that believes, if not in catholic teachings exactly, but that there may be a god. i bet she will become fully christian again in her old age.

I would call myself a cultural Christian. I no longer have much belief but still find a lot of meaning in the traditions of the church. Judging by the huge number of people at the service we attended last night, lots of people feel this way.