To think the 'Troubles Northern Ireland 1969-1997' ensured the Grammar system stayed in operation In Northern Ireland, thus is now the best education system in the United Kingdom.

[redange]

I do wonder if the Troubles that were ongoing in Northern Ireland between 1969-1997 meant that there was to much going on for the destruction of Grammar Schools to begin. Throughout, the 1960s and 1970s over 1000 Grammar schools were closed in England and Wales going from 1,296 in 1965 1 to the present 164 .The present 164 are in located usually in traditionally Conservative local areas in England. The Most Northern being Ripon Grammar in North Yorkshire, the most southern being Churston Ferrers in Torbay Devon. The survival of the current Grammar schools being down to local councils and County Councils such as Kent and Trafford acting against Government demands initially from Harold Wilson's 1965 Labour Government and then from across the political spectrum, with Margaret Thatcher closing more Grammar Schools than Labour.

However, it is obvious that with all that was going on in Northern Ireland political left wing dogma about Education in the 1970's was not at the forefront of discussion. The, result being that the destruction of the education system that was going on in England and left Wales devoid of any Grammar Schools did not take place in Northern Ireland. The result which is often backed up when i meet people from Northern Ireland being that the Grammar School system has advanced those from Northern Ireland to be the most educated in the United Kingdom. Therefore, it makes me quite sad that now Northern Ireland is politically 'stable' that Sein Fein are acting like any left wing political party and seeking the abolition of the Transfer Tests (known in England as the 11+). Why, cant Sein Fein except that one of the 'benefits' of the Troubles was an education system that has educated Catholics and Protestants greatly above those from say Wrexham. Indeed the Catholic and Non Secular Grammar Schools in Northern Ireland have ensured that only a very small Private Sector needs to exist.

It is. And in more affluent areas the pressure starts early on. I’ve heard of parents tutoring their 4 year olds over the summer in prep for starting school. P1s getting substantial homework. P5s getting private tutors. Children being removed from school on certain days of the week for private grinds.

On music: Methody’s music department is indeed excellent. Musical education in NI is also massively bolstered in Methody’s and many other schools’ case by the various ELB music schools (eg the City of Belfast School of Music).

Music in England has this wonderful tradition of choral singing and cathedral school choirs, which I think is an outstanding elite musical education. But it’s open to the few, rather than (as in NI) the many.

In more affluent areas the kids attend prep schools linked to whatever grammar the parents are aiming for. I’ll shamelessly admit that I did it for my DD, no regrets! I do however accept that it does give kids an unfair advantage in comparison to their state primary educated peers.

Don’t be ashamed! There’s a lot to be said for the smaller class sizes and the less chaotic atmosphere that goes with it, irrespective of whether the child ends up in grammar.

I don't think it's that ridiculous tbh but maybe i'm too young (born in '82). The only impact it had on me was that we didn't go to Belfast City Centre ever until I was well into my teens. I grew up on a farm in the country and went to grammar school outside Belfast and I didn't see much of the troubles first hand at all.

It is so much pressure at such a young age. There was talk this year at my daughter's school of some kids collapsing into tears and being unable to complete the test. The invigilators weren't allowed to talk to them to try to calm them so they were just left to try to calm down themselves.

The primary school my daughter's at start preparing them in March of P6 and they don't do much else until the test in November of P7. Most of the kids get tutored outside school as well.

If you're a smart kid from a school who aren't doing much prep and have parents who aren't that fussed you might get through on your natural ability but on the other hand you probably won't. It's not a particularly fair system but everyone wants the best for their kid.

I think abolishing the state run test has actually made things less fair for lower income families especially in the time that schools weren't allowed to prep the kids for the test at all.

When i did the test 30+ years ago I don't remember it being as big a deal at all with as much pressure.

selective state education is damaging for everyone involved in England. Is it different in NI?

You’re not too young: I was born in 81 and grew up in Andersonstown, west Belfast. We waited for our school bus in the mornings opposite the Sinn Fein headquarters.

Let me tell you: most people, if not everyone, I knew was affected. I would not call the effect “overstated” by any stretch. I imagine you were insulated by, among other things, living rurally.

Do we have any posters on her from Northern Ireland who did not attend Grammar School. Therefore, is it a given due to the fact about 40% of pupils get a grammar school education, that the majority of posters on a 'middle class' Academically based sight will be grammar school alumni.

It would be interesting to get an opinion, from Northern Ireland people who failed the 11+ as to if they feel let down.

All that shows is how localised the effects of the Troubles were. They disproportionately affected certain communities and others were hardly touched. Like the PP, my experience was broadly not going to Belfast city centre and extra checks at airports and shops. The murder rate outside of a couple of years in the 70’s was comparable to NYC during the crack epidemic.

No one is saying it didn’t affect you, but if you want your experience acknowledged, you’ve got to acknowledge that very many people had a completely different experience.

And I grew up less than 2 miles from you off the Lisburn Road. Not rural at all.

Still spectacularly tone deaf to state that “Troubles and trauma seem to have become a bit of an industry” - though it probably seems like that if you’re from middle class off-the-Lisburn-Road.

Completely, the school I teach in, very much teaches to the transfer. Lots of test papers and from p5 they are doing vocabulary, problem solving and fact learning for homework every night. My daughter's school is a lot more relaxed and homework isn't a lot. In one way this is great, lots of homework etc at that age is ridiculous but on the other hand she has the potential to pass the transfer so I'm going to have to try and do extra work with her and get her a tutor to give her the same chance as everyone else. 🙈

I’m going to side note that the destruction of these schools took with it almost all state funded single sex secondary schools. These can be very important for girls and boys of various backgrounds for different reasons. I wish that mixed sex education was not the only state option in many parts of the UK.

CurrentHun · Today 14:52
I’m going to side note that the destruction of these schools took with it almost all state funded single sex secondary schools. These can be very important for girls and boys of various backgrounds for different reasons. I wish that mixed sex education was not the only state option in many parts of the UK.
I presume you mean the destruction of the '1000' or so Grammar Schools in England that in many cases were Single Sex, which even in the most deprived areas offer a more controlled environment.

"Children being removed from school on certain days of the week for private grinds."
Never heard of this happening- what would be the point?
(For those who don't know, "grinds" is the southern Irish term for tutoring).

Cut out all the fun stuff like Art, PE etc and concentrate on transfer test practice. It’s not massively common but it does happen.

I didn't mean schools themsrlves stopping doing PE (is that even legal?) We had 11+ practice once a week in P6, back when it was called "Structured Reasoning" -does anyone else remember those big black and yellow booklets?- but we still did PE and Art.
I mean parents keeping their children out of school for private tutoring. How does that even work? Do they pretend the children are sick those days? And what days- art and PE are usually mixed in through the week so it's not as if you'd send them in to school Mon-Wed to do all the maths and English and keep them off Thurs+Fri when their classmates are doing the "fun stuff" Considering a lot of tutors are actually teachers (or were back in the 80s, not sure what happens now), how are they even available during the school day?

A few people know my in RL, and my comments/thoughts on NI education system. For reference, I went to boarding school in the England. I'm from north Down, almost no Catholics where I grew up. My observation is that the current system fails many (most?) working class children, and especially those from a unionist background. Many of these children are siphoned off at 11 to separate grammar and secondary streams, where very few secondary pupils progress to 3rd level, and so so many drop out early. You can see the impact in smaller towns, lack of opportunities, social issues, etc. It's seldom seen as a priority issue for our (Unionist) politicians. Catholic grammar schools typically dominate the top positions in academic league tables.

Our kids have experience of the ROI education system too, and at secondary level I've been impressed. There is a certain level/standard of teaching and dedication from the staff that is notable (versus England).

I know what you meant. Essentially parents just do it. Sometimes they will tutor the children themselves. I work in education so have first hand experience of this. It wouldn’t be all year but in the run up to exams.

What proportion of children get to go to a grammar school in those areas and what kind of education do those children get? Presumably an inferior one as you don't mention them at all.

100% working class (unionist) boys are I think currently the most disadvantage in NI society. This is a legacy of the troubles and associated reforms.

It is interesting that Catholic Grammar Schools and Education on the whole leads the Protestants in Northern Ireland. Because, i have read reports that even in the middle of the 1990's that places at Catholic Grammar Schools were more 'scarce' and that Catholic children were the one's who were the most disadvantaged. So we have a complete turn around, no doubt that's why SDLP, Sein Fein keep quiet .

Also a result of the demise of many industries here. For example generations of young Protestant men were previously assured jobs in the shipyard. For that reason, many of them didn’t have the same drive to succeed academically as their Catholic counterparts, for whom education was pushed as a way out of deprivation and poverty. DP grew up in a Catholic area and watched hundreds of Protestant men walk past his house, within inches of his living room window, every day on their way to work in the factory at the end of the road. Not one Catholic worked there, or certainly not any who were prepared to admit it. Many industries were not an option for Catholics. They had to find other ways of making a living. Education was hugely important to working class Catholics. I’m speaking very generally here of course.

I believe 'Delorean' Cars employed everybody and could have been brilliant if John Delorean was not a 'bullshitter' . I have watched programs about how in Belfast for the first time at Delorean Cars it did not matter, what religion or class you were.