To think the 'Troubles Northern Ireland 1969-1997' ensured the Grammar system stayed in operation In Northern Ireland, thus is now the best education system in the United Kingdom.

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I do wonder if the Troubles that were ongoing in Northern Ireland between 1969-1997 meant that there was to much going on for the destruction of Grammar Schools to begin. Throughout, the 1960s and 1970s over 1000 Grammar schools were closed in England and Wales going from 1,296 in 1965 1 to the present 164 .The present 164 are in located usually in traditionally Conservative local areas in England. The Most Northern being Ripon Grammar in North Yorkshire, the most southern being Churston Ferrers in Torbay Devon. The survival of the current Grammar schools being down to local councils and County Councils such as Kent and Trafford acting against Government demands initially from Harold Wilson's 1965 Labour Government and then from across the political spectrum, with Margaret Thatcher closing more Grammar Schools than Labour.

However, it is obvious that with all that was going on in Northern Ireland political left wing dogma about Education in the 1970's was not at the forefront of discussion. The, result being that the destruction of the education system that was going on in England and left Wales devoid of any Grammar Schools did not take place in Northern Ireland. The result which is often backed up when i meet people from Northern Ireland being that the Grammar School system has advanced those from Northern Ireland to be the most educated in the United Kingdom. Therefore, it makes me quite sad that now Northern Ireland is politically 'stable' that Sein Fein are acting like any left wing political party and seeking the abolition of the Transfer Tests (known in England as the 11+). Why, cant Sein Fein except that one of the 'benefits' of the Troubles was an education system that has educated Catholics and Protestants greatly above those from say Wrexham. Indeed the Catholic and Non Secular Grammar Schools in Northern Ireland have ensured that only a very small Private Sector needs to exist.

Looking at a YouTube sales speech to assess what a school is really like🤣 I’ve heard it all. Of course they’re only going to put their very best and brightest pupils on show. As for smartly dressed.. you mean standard uniform?

As someone who lives close by it is very much a last resort school for a reason.

I don’t think that having to go to a separate sixth form college is a bad thing whatsoever. It’s good in my opinion for pupils to have a change of scenery and more independence than what they’d get if they stayed on at their old school for A levels. Unfortunately in NI the options are either stay at school or go to an FE college (nowhere near as good/advanced as they are in England). There’s no in between.

Which nobody is doing..? The grammar system in NI is very much here to stay. There is far too much old money and religious/political connections in it for things to be abolished. The class system here is heavily reliant on grammars and the pupils that they churn out.

ByronKoala · Today 21:00

Last Resort School ? What do you make of Thornhill Community in Dewsbury then
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This is ... just not true

And the 36.9% GCSE Grade 5 which actually is quite good considering...

This is my personal experience so why would it not be true?

And iv campaigned to change it

I really don’t see this happening. Many grammar have gone non selective with success already. Dominican in Portstewart for example. And there are already examples of Highs (admittedly outside Belfast) with several students who go on to Oxbridge. I would see it panning out like the Ed system in the Republic with private schools in cities gaining popularity, and subtle streaming in state schools to support more academic students. I would envisage higher numbers of lower achieving students going on to do A levels and lower levels of dropout.

@Piglet89 but my point is how would your school ( today) compare to other grammars in England? That to me would be a fair comparison as we know that grammars ( both in England and NI) have different intakes than the comps. They can select, there is lots of private tutoring, there is a different culture regarding achievement, etc. Proportionally, I think you are saying that there are more grammars in NI compared to England so the choice is easier but that doesn’t mean overall the education system is better, does it? In our stats, the private sector skews things and proportionally have a higher number of those schools after grammars were largely abolished. You are talking, I think, about state funded education - grammar and state.

I am a NI grammar school child, coming from a long line of NI grammar school children.

My own son is patiently awaiting his SEAG results and is expected to attend BRA or RBAI (Inst being the less academic of the two, but still a good school.)

The grammar school affinity is ingrained, and quite frankly, I would be horrified if my children attended any of the local secondaries. They would be eaten alive.

I guess that's why Northern Ireland people talk about which Grammar they went to in the same way English people talk about which Public School they went to !

However, there is a huge difference between Campbell College and Harrow or how about Victoria College to Wycombe Abbey. That is a bit of realism to those who think they have natural in built agency or is Campbell a bit like 'Stowe' Rich but Thick !

Having read the paper the tests that children from NI outperformed children in England on were all taken at primary age. In the only test administered at 14yrs old, children in NI performed at the same level as those from England.

At best the the evidence suggests that 3,5,7 and 11 year olds out perform their equivalents in England. 14year olds are performing at a similar level to those in England. And if we look at the results on international testing (PISA, TIMSS) 15 year olds in NI are performing less well than 15 year olds in England.

That doesn’t seem to be overwhelmingly in support of the idea that NI secondary education is much better than in England.

We saw our brothers and fathers gunned down in cold blood. Give us a decent education without the guilt, there’s a love :)

Firstly, my personal experience was totally different, secondly, they have a curriculum to follow, just like any other school in the UK. They don't get to just teach Protestantism or whatever.

Lesina · Today 22:05
We saw our brothers and fathers gunned down in cold blood. Give us a decent education without the guilt, there’s a love :)

Unfortunately, you are going though the debate the rest of the UK went through 50 years ago. The war was won by the original ' Wokes' and over '1000' of England's & Wales best schools were lost transformed or became not accessible to the majority. This, with Labour applying the final 'Chemical ' in the lethal injection, to these attainable schools up until the middle of the 1970's.

The fact there is more choice and less of a scrum is a major reason why the education system is better in NI.

I think you’re looking at this from a very English angle - as long as I can get my kid into the high standard education in the few grammar school counties, that’s fine.

For me, a major measure of whether a nation’s education system is better is the proportion of its citizens it educates to a high standard. And on that measure, NI absolutely wipes the floor with England.

And, in any event, I STILL think the grammar I attended would rival any Kent grammar: even today. When I attended, I’d lay the house on it enabling better social mobility too (a higher proportion of kids attending my north Belfast grammar from working class West Belfast than the equivalent in Kent).

The fact that NI grammar alumni were significantly over represented at my Cambridge college is also notable.

Finally: on your exam board point. Oxford and Cambridge board may have been THOUGHT to be hardest, but that’s only because nobody in England would have likely seen a NICCEA exam
paper, let alone sat one.

We don't really. People rarely ask me which school I went to. Some ask as a coded way of determining your background (Catholic or Protestant).

There's a story (likely apocryphal) about Samuel Beckett who taught at Campbell in 1927 for a short while. The headmaster asked him if he realised that the pupils were ‘the cream of Ulster’, Beckett replied ‘Yes, rich and thick’.

Campbell isn't a top performing school academically but calling the pupils rich and thick is maybe taking it a bit far!

Do not agree with the 11+ at all, very stressful for the child at such a young age and it makes for a more unequal society.
Much prefer the system in ROI which has great outcomes. A lot is down to general attitudes towards education across the whole island, as others have mentioned.

I benefitted from the grammar system, as did my dad who went to one of the Belfast grammars in the 1960s as the son of a coach builder who instilled the value of education into all of us. Back in my day (1999) everyone at my primary school did the 11+, everyone knew it was important but despite being an anxious child I don’t recall feeling stressed over it. It wasn’t like now where the classes are split between “doing the test” and “not doing it” and parents report kids vomitting before going in the hall to sit it. Scrapping the transfer test has contributed to making it more stressful for kids rather than just being part of the transition to secondary education.

I accept it’s not perfect but at least kids from lower income families stand a chance, rather the comp system where parents pay through the nose for the luxury of a house within the catchment area of a good school or relying on having parents clued in enough to apply for bursaries or scholarships for private schools.

I would add though that some of the schools outside of Belfast moving to High School status, such as Dominican, or mixed sex (the grammar in Enniskillen which name has escaped me) have done so in an attempt to remain viable in the face of depopulation and declining school roles. They’re not all suddenly having a “come to Jesus” moment as to the value of non selective or co-ed education. I think further changes are afoot in the next 10-20 years, and certainly in the prep sector we are already seeing contraction.

I totally agree with this.^^

We have excellent state schools. Staffed by great teachers and supported by parents.

@Piglet89 you got to Cambridge ( one of the examining boards I mentioned).I’m surprised if the NI system is so much better you chose there rather than Queens. Must have been quite an easy ride after such difficult exams.

I think the effects of the Troubles are overstated on the majority of the NI population. Most people had a reasonable comfortable middle class lifestyle, especially if your family had a public sector job. You had great education and cheap housing, and English people are always surprised at the strength of the NI middle and upper classes. Troubles and trauma seem to have become a bit of an industry, and yet no one seems that bothered about getting the Catholic Church out of education, or pushing integration full stop.

My girls’ grammar sent pupils to both Wykham Abbey and Cheltenham Ladies’ College, with no drama or fuss. It was quite funny at Uni watching public school kids in England be really quite astonished when they were outperformed by NI kids from schools they hadn’t heard of - and who also gave no fucks about what school others came from. And if you think English public school graduates are arrogant, you clearly haven’t met many young men from Inst! 😄

One more thing that pretty much all NI schools do far better is music. Almost all of them have really strong choirs, and Methody’s girls’ choir sang at the coronation.

I think the effects of the Troubles are overstated on the majority of the NI population

I think that’s completely ridiculous. The troubles defined the formative years of at least one generation. Middle class areas were affected just as much as any other. My bourgeoisie bil saw the remains of his best friend scraped into a body bag when he was 13. Nobody was spared the effects, the entirety of society was affected particularly in Derry and Belfast.

It’s statements like this that seem bizarre to us southerners, for whom it’s the norm to sit alongside builders’ daughters, Irish travellers etc graduate in classes where people can get maximum LC points (600) or 200 points and not think anything of it. You just went to your local school. There are also the ETB schools for those who want a more practical route. Nobody talks about “good” or “bad” schools.

For what it’s worth, I went to a university in Ireland where many English / NI students attend and it was always the English students who seemed to blow everyone else out of the water in terms of prior knowledge, critical thinking, readiness for uni etc.

I'm a primary school teacher in NI and my daughter is p6 (doing the transfer next year). It's awful. Imagine feeling like a failure at 10/11 years old. The more affluent children can afford tutors making the system more unfair. Children should not be studying and stressing about exam results. I was very lucky. I'm from a small town with a comprehensive secondary school with a grammar stream. If you live in the town you automatically got in but further afield had to do the 11plus. Not many teachers here that I know agree with the transfer.