To think the 'Troubles Northern Ireland 1969-1997' ensured the Grammar system stayed in operation In Northern Ireland, thus is now the best education system in the United Kingdom.

[redange]

I do wonder if the Troubles that were ongoing in Northern Ireland between 1969-1997 meant that there was to much going on for the destruction of Grammar Schools to begin. Throughout, the 1960s and 1970s over 1000 Grammar schools were closed in England and Wales going from 1,296 in 1965 1 to the present 164 .The present 164 are in located usually in traditionally Conservative local areas in England. The Most Northern being Ripon Grammar in North Yorkshire, the most southern being Churston Ferrers in Torbay Devon. The survival of the current Grammar schools being down to local councils and County Councils such as Kent and Trafford acting against Government demands initially from Harold Wilson's 1965 Labour Government and then from across the political spectrum, with Margaret Thatcher closing more Grammar Schools than Labour.

However, it is obvious that with all that was going on in Northern Ireland political left wing dogma about Education in the 1970's was not at the forefront of discussion. The, result being that the destruction of the education system that was going on in England and left Wales devoid of any Grammar Schools did not take place in Northern Ireland. The result which is often backed up when i meet people from Northern Ireland being that the Grammar School system has advanced those from Northern Ireland to be the most educated in the United Kingdom. Therefore, it makes me quite sad that now Northern Ireland is politically 'stable' that Sein Fein are acting like any left wing political party and seeking the abolition of the Transfer Tests (known in England as the 11+). Why, cant Sein Fein except that one of the 'benefits' of the Troubles was an education system that has educated Catholics and Protestants greatly above those from say Wrexham. Indeed the Catholic and Non Secular Grammar Schools in Northern Ireland have ensured that only a very small Private Sector needs to exist.

Here are two excellent non Grammar schools In Northern Ireland which proves a point you can have excellent High schools alongside Grammar schools. A point which many argue against in England.
St Columbanus' College - Home
ttps://www.ashfieldgirls.org

I can honestly assure you that Ashfield isn’t anywhere near excellent in terms of leavers destinations, subject offerings etc. I find it strange OP that you’re commenting on NI schools with evidently 0 recent experience of them?

Many people on the border on the island of Ireland choose to send their children to Grammars rather than Irish non selective schools- for example Donegal residents opting for Derry. This choice always fascinates me. It tends to be super high achievers from middle class backgrounds who do this, it always led me to believe that it opened more options for them academically, as compared with the points based leaving cert rote learning system. I was leaving cert educated and I do feel it gives you a roundedness that is lacking with grammar school/a-level. There’s something about mixing with people from a broader spectrum of backgrounds and abilities too- better social skills/ worldliness if that makes sense. I struggle with this as live on the border myself and not sure what option is best for my kids long term.

I’d opt for LC without thinking twice. A-levels involve far too early specialising.

@Piglet89 do you really think that NI education is better than English ? Seriously? Have you any idea of the range in England? London alone?

@Fleurdevilleyes, seriously. I absolutely do “have an idea of the range in England”. I LIVE in London and, in the area in which I live, would have to pay £30K a year to get my son the kind of quality grammar school education from which I benefited in Northern Ireland.

This
Lots of child sexual abuse swept under the carpet by both sides. Look at Jeffrey Donaldson.. Maria cathal.. aine Adams .. recent reports of Presbyterian church

Northern ireland is the most dangerous place to be a woman in Europe
30 women killed in n.i by men known to them since 2020
Academics have argued that this is due to the troubles legacy
Paramilitaries still control drugs/ prostitution/ money laundering/ rakeerting from small independent businesses
We have a mental health pandemic and mental health services are non existent
High amount of substance misuse
And political parties who are VERY happy to cosy up to said Paramilitaries for votes
The only party worth voting for want to get rid of the 11 plus

Not sure why OP is saying Sinn Fein is seeking the abolition of the transfer test but perhaps they meant abolition of academic selection. The official transfer test was abolished in 2009. The end result of that was that the test was effectively privatised and continues much as before.

The chances of Sinn Fein being able to abolish academic selection without cross community support are nil due to safeguards built into the Good Friday agreement and St Andrews agreement of 2006.

The grammar school system is brilliant for any child who is granted a place. Can you find it in yourself to spare a thought for those who are not?

Not so very difficult to pause the system if you measure success by the academic achievement of those who are given places. If you average out the results across all the students, the results give a very different story.

What happens to the ‘rejects’. If their results were equally sparkling, I’d be very interested to know more. I suspect however that the resources are concentrated on those who are given grammar school places.

By what measure is the NI education system better @redange ?Genuinely interested.

ByronKoala · Today 17:16
redange · Today 14:37
Here are two excellent non Grammar schools In Northern Ireland which proves a point you can have excellent High schools alongside Grammar schools. A point which many argue against in England.
St Columbanus' College - Home
ttps://www.ashfieldgirls.org
I can honestly assure you that Ashfield isn’t anywhere near excellent in terms of leavers destinations, subject offerings etc. I find it strange OP that you’re commenting on NI schools with evidently 0 recent experience of them?

Whether, I have personal knowledge of Ashfield is irrelevant, I know the majority of Non Selective i.e Comprehensive Schools in England would be very happy with 5 A*(9-5) C at 54% even in a non selective area ! I also look at how smartly dressed and articulate the girls are,(including the Sixth Form) having heard them speak on You Tube. Remember, in England this school could be classed as ' a Secondary Modern' school in a City ! Yet here we have a school that offers outcomes equal to the top 30% of all England's Secondary Schools. The, option for A levels is also something that many comparative schools in England do not offer either. Pupils forced in to Sixth Form or Further Education Colleges. Similarly Girls achieving higher than what Ashfield caters for should be in Grammar Schools in the first place !

It's not a given that because there are grammars, the other options are bad. That is definitely not the case where I am from, the secondaries there are excellent.

If you read the thread you'll understand the reasons people are suggesting for education being high quality across the board.

It's telling that Catholic grammar schools wanted to continue selection
. Despite mcguiness and sf

Maths/English 74% without Maths/English . Many Secondary schools In England might achieve 54% at Grade 4 but certainly not at Grade at grade 5 . Indeed, they are Grammar Schools in Lincolnshire Boston Grammar only achieved 52.3% at Grade 5 GCSE Maths/English . Highlighting, how good Ashfield's results actually are given that its a Non Selective school surrounded by two Girls Grammar Schools and other Mixed Grammar Schools.

@GinaandGin - yes that's exactly what I said!

There's actually one test now as AQE and GL merged into SEAG.

The Boston Grammar School - Compare school and college performance data in England - GOV.UK (compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk)

@GinaandGin

The late Henry McDonald had an interesting take on this

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2009/feb/06/northern-ireland-11-plus?CMP=ShareAndroidAppOther

I'm not a fan of grammar system. We could so easily have 'grammar streams' in all schools.

It's a system that teaches kids they aren't worth anything if they don't achieve grammar.

Parents who go a little insane come p6 with tutors and preparations and freaking out if the primary school if they feel they aren't doing enough prep.

Then there's the kids who don't do the transfer test, some primaries basically shove them into a room, give them a book and tell them to read while prepping other kids for transfer.

All because parents look at which primaries send most kids to grammar

Then there's the kids who are damaged by their grammar school. They are hot housed and if they can't keep up they are basically forced out so they don't bring grade average down.

I'll admit I know very little about how the 11+ works as I didn't grow up in a grammar school area. Is there any sort of weighting involved in it? For example, my university offer was reduced because I lived in a disadvantaged postcode when I applied. Do they/could they do something similar with the 11+ where markers of disadvantage are taken into account? I am in favour of the grammar system but, having been to most other kinds of schools, I can easily see how the system would be gamed by cut-throat middle class parents.

I did some Googling as suggested and my findings don’t align to the sentiment that NI has the best education in the Kingdom. It’s far more nuanced and varies by subject - also the differences aren’t significant. See below:

‘While rankings vary by subject and year,
Northern Ireland often leads the UK in maths/science, and England excels in reading, though both consistently rank high globally in some areas, with Scotland generally strong in early years but falling behind later, and Walesoften below the UK average in international tests like PISA, according to various reports https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-50563833, www.education-ni.gov.uk/news/ni-pupils-perform-well-mathematics-reading-and-science-international-survey, The Guardian.
Key Findings by Nation:

• England: Ranks high in reading, often above average for OECD countries, showing significant improvement over the past decade in PISA tests.
• Northern Ireland: Very strong in maths and science (often outperforming Scotland and England in these subjects in some studies), and ranked highly in reading alongside England in past studies like PIRLS.
• Scotland: Starts strong at younger ages but tends to fall behind peers, particularly in maths, and shows a widening attainment gap.
• Wales: Typically performs lower than other UK nations in international comparisons like PISA, often below the OECD average in reading, though some internal studies paint a slightly different picture.

International Comparisons:

• PISA (Programme for International Student Assessment): Shows England performing well in reading and maths, Northern Ireland strong in maths/science, Scotland declining in maths, and Wales below average.
• PIRLS (Progress in International Reading Literacy Study): Placed England and Northern Ireland in the global top 10 for primary reading.

In essence, there's no single "best," as each nation excels in different areas, but England and Northern Ireland consistently show strong performance, particularly in recent years compared to Scotland and Wales in major international benchmarks.

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/state-education-what-awaits-next-government#:~:text=Over%20the%20last%2010%20to,system%20(Sibieta%2C%202024a).

NI has appalling RE education. It's very either catholic or protestant and nothing else.
And see Ed is a bad word in many schools

@Piglet89 are you talking about the level of education you had say 30 years ago or are you comparing a grammar school in NI today to a state school in London - because that ‘s not like for like. If you said a grammar school in NI was better than a grammar school in England it would be more comparable, or a state school in NI vs London/UK. The grammar schools adjacent to London (Kent) have very high results.

I am comparing like for like: today. I don’t live in Kent. Vast swathes of England do not have that system and, on average, the secondary education here just simply is not as good. And a damn site more expensive. Plus there’s an unseemly scrum of pushy parents buying homes or otherwise gaming the catchment areas for a grammar education like that in the south east of England.

As for “30 years ago”: My old grammar school topped the Times league tables for NI grammars this year and it’s as good as or better than our ludicrously expensive local independent - so not a great deal has changed.

The 11+ in England is an unreasonable system that favours rich parents who can afford to live in catchment and tutor kids. I live in a grammar area but we moved after my DS was 11 so we are stuck in a regular comp. These suffer due to kids feeling like second class citizens and parents disengaging. Funds also seem to be lacking in comparison, due to parents at grammars being able to top up their PTA massively. Despite all this, my DS is doing very well and will get comparable results to grammar kids. I don’t know about the NI system but feels strongly that either all grammars should go or they should be available all obey your country with adequate spaces to remove the postcode/ tutoring issue

If Northern Ireland went to a Comprehensive system, within 5 years the regard for teachers would be gone academic standards would plummet and you will be crying that you let go one of the biggest assets anybody can have . An high achieving education system that greater benefits, those that will not be needing the benefit system to prop them up.

Do posters in Northern Ireland really want your children going to Thornhill Community school in Dewsbury . This being the desire of Bridget Phillipson that all children should be educated in Diverse Schools that represent society. Methodist, Victoria , Stratheran would become £20'K a year Private Schools lost to even the 'minority' who currently benefit.

Northern Ireland needs to be very careful, what type of schools you really want. Just because SEN education is 'Crap' does not make it an excuse to make all Schools crap and 'diverse' in behavior and academic achievement.