To think the 'Troubles Northern Ireland 1969-1997' ensured the Grammar system stayed in operation In Northern Ireland, thus is now the best education system in the United Kingdom.

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I do wonder if the Troubles that were ongoing in Northern Ireland between 1969-1997 meant that there was to much going on for the destruction of Grammar Schools to begin. Throughout, the 1960s and 1970s over 1000 Grammar schools were closed in England and Wales going from 1,296 in 1965 1 to the present 164 .The present 164 are in located usually in traditionally Conservative local areas in England. The Most Northern being Ripon Grammar in North Yorkshire, the most southern being Churston Ferrers in Torbay Devon. The survival of the current Grammar schools being down to local councils and County Councils such as Kent and Trafford acting against Government demands initially from Harold Wilson's 1965 Labour Government and then from across the political spectrum, with Margaret Thatcher closing more Grammar Schools than Labour.

However, it is obvious that with all that was going on in Northern Ireland political left wing dogma about Education in the 1970's was not at the forefront of discussion. The, result being that the destruction of the education system that was going on in England and left Wales devoid of any Grammar Schools did not take place in Northern Ireland. The result which is often backed up when i meet people from Northern Ireland being that the Grammar School system has advanced those from Northern Ireland to be the most educated in the United Kingdom. Therefore, it makes me quite sad that now Northern Ireland is politically 'stable' that Sein Fein are acting like any left wing political party and seeking the abolition of the Transfer Tests (known in England as the 11+). Why, cant Sein Fein except that one of the 'benefits' of the Troubles was an education system that has educated Catholics and Protestants greatly above those from say Wrexham. Indeed the Catholic and Non Secular Grammar Schools in Northern Ireland have ensured that only a very small Private Sector needs to exist.

Fees - Methodist College Belfast (methody.org)

Yes, however they very strongly suggest paying an extra £1200 into the ‘voluntary fund’ per year. So voluntary that I got 6 reminder letters about it…! DD left a few years ago so I can imagine that the suggested donation has increased again since then.

The same courses up to 16; GCSE's are offered at "secondary moderns" or whatever they might be called. Indeed, non-selective schools (up to now) are measured by the same standards as Grammar Schools. So I dont hear very much clarity about how schools post eleven are organised beyond how their students are allocated.

Funny enough the rest of the island of Ireland seems to do well internationally in assessments of educational rigour and attainment. There is no grammar system there, no 11+ or Transfer Testing.

What makes a difference across the entire island is that society places a value on education.

So let's say overall PISA scores in Northern Ireland are higher than UK average or have risen in a statistically significant way since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement. (Or indeed both).

Is this because of Grammar Schools? Or higher than average funding? Or higher than average proportion of Church schools? Or different proportion of single-sex schools? Or the psychological effect of the prospect of lasting peace?

I don't know. I suspect that if the existence of grammar schools raises the overall attainment the what happens in the non-selective schools is where you'll find the cause. Which I don't see articulated.

Sounds like methody hasn't changed. I didn't go there, I went to another grammar school in Belfast in the early 90s. Had and have close friends who did go
Back then it was crazy competitive. Survival of the fittest.
I thought after the recent high profile case where they had to pay out 50k (I think it was ) to a young pupil abused on a school trip they would maybe change.
Awaits to be seen
I hope your DD is doing well now ❤️

I am NI born and bred, and went to one of the grammars mentioned here. It’s not the grammars that make the difference, the culture surrounding education is totally different back home. Most parents put the work in at home and back up teachers - and it’s the threat/carrot of grammars that keep parents in line. I think parental attitudes are similar across the whole island tbh.

In my naice English village, there is such a huge swathe of differing attitudes to schools and education - and I would say it’s the minority that would prioritise academics.

They were the highest in the UK when I was at school in the 70s. It's nothing to do with the political situation. It's because the NI Education board set the hardest exams in the UK and the schools taught us to pass them. How hard is that to understand? Not everything is politics.

"I suspect that if the existence of grammar schools raises the overall attainment the what happens in the non-selective schools is where you'll find the cause. Which I don't see articulated."

If my elder daughter fails the 11+ or whatever it's called now, she'll either go to the secondary department of the integrated school she's in, or the local high school that I mentioned before that gets decent results as far as I can see from a look at their homepage:

"72% of our students achieved 5 GCSE A - C, an exceptional performance that clearly indicates the passion of our teaching staff and the hard work of our pupils. 70% of our students achieved A-C in Maths and English, an excellent outcome for this group of year 12 pupils."

ByronKoala · Today 20:42, however they very strongly suggest paying an extra £1200 into the ‘voluntary fund’ per year. So voluntary that I got 6 reminder letters about it…! DD left a few years ago so I can imagine that the suggested donation has increased again since then
Or £20,000 a year In England for the same Education !

I'm not sure you understood my post. I didn't say I had any view about why results are higher in NI.

I am curious about these harder exams. I thought that students did GCSE'S at 16. Are these different to the exams of the same name in England? Genuine non-political question the answer to which I'll do my best to understand.

This ...we did cross community activities with a Catholic grammar school in Belfast..like my belfast mixed grammar school you were expected by your parents/ teachers/ peers to put in the work ... and teachers were not a bit afraid to put a scathing comment on a report card
The parents would go along with it and muck in with prize days / sports days / school fund raisers as there was a massive push to go to a "good" uni

NI students do sit GCSE exams, and for a long while the only option was NI’s own exam board (it was unheard of to take an English exam board paper, and in any case the English GCSE results came out a week later). Some people said that the NI papers were harder but I saw no evidence of that, and thought it was people just hamming up NI exceptionalism.

They were the highest in the UK when I was at school in the 70s. It's nothing to do with the political situation. It's because the NI Education board set the hardest exams in the UK and the schools taught us to pass them. How hard is that to understand? Not everything is politics.

Therefore, Is a A GCSE Northern Ireland = to a Grade 9 in England. A Welsh A = to a Grade 7 English or a 'B' Northern Ireland. Wales has dumbed down under Labour like SNP in Scotland. It is said in England an A* is equal to a grade 8 which is why on 6th Form applications an A IGCSE = 8.5 points and not 9 despite not being possible.

So what happens differently in the high school? Why not send all children to schools like this? I don't see a purpose to separating at 11 but I'm genuinely interested in good reasons why it is in the best interests of all children to have this system.

I'm getting the feeling that we're in a social media world where there's no room for curiosity, only being for or against something (in this case selection at 11 and the suggestion that this raises overall attainment).

I also think that the Troubles insulated NI from a range of social changes that happened across the water - including fads and trends in teaching. My NI primary school in the 90’s was still rows of desks facing the teacher, and a very traditional style of teaching. Spellings and mental arithmetic first thing every day come hell or high water.

I see now that it has been clarified that NI,England and Welsh GCSE Exams are the same difficulty like a 1990 GCSE is to a 2025 ?

As long as the alternative is good then yes. In some areas that is the case. I know a comprehensive school in a grammar school area with a farm attached that offers amazing opportunities.

"Spellings and mental arithmetic first thing every day come hell or high water."

Ours have spellings and maths as part of their homework every day. Parents are expected to help their children revise these every Thursday night for a spellings and maths test every Friday from P2 (age 5-6).

You mentioned that the signing of the GFA may have had an effect on the stats. My point was that they were always high, this is nothing new. Sorry if I seemed sharp, between that and the OP suggesting the Troubles were the reason for the non introduction of comprehensive ed, I was getting a little frustrated!

I live in England and have nephews in NI. In NI gcses and A levels are assessed differently to England. In England they are examined after a two year course. In NI they have two sets of exams after each year of the two year course and the results added together. Does this make it easier to get higher results in NI? I don't know but even though the exams have the same name are they the different so I'm not sure they can be compared.

If you look at PISA stats, NI outperformed wales and Scotland but England did slightly better, and Ireland did considerably better- which dents the 'people won't want a united Ireland so they can keep lots of grammars' argument somewhat

My home city in Northern Ireland has amazing Grammars but also wonderful Secondaries that offer a wide range of A level options and get great results. The overall standard would blow your mind.

One major advantage is that the low cost of living in NI makes teaching a much more attractive option for bright graduates than it is elsewhere.

It's hard to compare though. The leaving cert is a very different kind of exam to A levels.

In my days it was O and A level GCE, and CSEs for the less academic.

There were a wide variety of exam boards in the UK, each set their own exams within the given curriculum. Some boards were easier than others and schools with less able pupils would pick and choose which board's exams to use. This was well known. In England ,for example, the Oxford and Cambridge boards carried the most kudos, and Universities would distinguish results by boards. If they had applicants with the same grades, the board they came from would hold sway.

I had a cousin in a Secondary Modern School who did his O levels with one of the English boards. In comparing papers, the difference was quite astonishing. They were both O levels, both GCE, but his were mostly 'describe this' type questions, mine were 'analysis, debate, draw conclusions'.