To think the 'Troubles Northern Ireland 1969-1997' ensured the Grammar system stayed in operation In Northern Ireland, thus is now the best education system in the United Kingdom.

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I do wonder if the Troubles that were ongoing in Northern Ireland between 1969-1997 meant that there was to much going on for the destruction of Grammar Schools to begin. Throughout, the 1960s and 1970s over 1000 Grammar schools were closed in England and Wales going from 1,296 in 1965 1 to the present 164 .The present 164 are in located usually in traditionally Conservative local areas in England. The Most Northern being Ripon Grammar in North Yorkshire, the most southern being Churston Ferrers in Torbay Devon. The survival of the current Grammar schools being down to local councils and County Councils such as Kent and Trafford acting against Government demands initially from Harold Wilson's 1965 Labour Government and then from across the political spectrum, with Margaret Thatcher closing more Grammar Schools than Labour.

However, it is obvious that with all that was going on in Northern Ireland political left wing dogma about Education in the 1970's was not at the forefront of discussion. The, result being that the destruction of the education system that was going on in England and left Wales devoid of any Grammar Schools did not take place in Northern Ireland. The result which is often backed up when i meet people from Northern Ireland being that the Grammar School system has advanced those from Northern Ireland to be the most educated in the United Kingdom. Therefore, it makes me quite sad that now Northern Ireland is politically 'stable' that Sein Fein are acting like any left wing political party and seeking the abolition of the Transfer Tests (known in England as the 11+). Why, cant Sein Fein except that one of the 'benefits' of the Troubles was an education system that has educated Catholics and Protestants greatly above those from say Wrexham. Indeed the Catholic and Non Secular Grammar Schools in Northern Ireland have ensured that only a very small Private Sector needs to exist.

Slough probably kills most of the old school arguements for Grammar school.
Huge amount of skilled hourly paid work locally so parents in the 1980s didn't necessarily want an 'ivory towered' academic in the family.
The grammar schools had low aspirations themselves for these kids, very few going for the Russell groups, lots went straight out to work.

The grammar schools still get good results because the kids are bright, behaviour problems very low, new wave of parents valuing education but still these kids are not setting the world alight in Land Economy and Law and all the other industries that are who you know.

Most of us liked being in streamed classes, even in a Grammar you quickly realise that some people are better or worse than you in languages, art or science. That's what helps teaching and learning, that narrow targeted range rather than having to teach from counting on fingers to imaginary numbers in one lesson.

Definitely I think that is possibly what drives more of the performance of NI schools more than the 11+ system.

InterestedDad37 · Today 06:52
Whoever wrote the OP clearly didn't fully benefit from the NI Grammar system, notably with regard to punctuation and sentence construction.

You are quite right i did not benefit from a Northern Ireland Grammar School, because I was not educated in Northern Ireland.

For, those that are interested in my education because they make rude and irrelevant comments about my punctuation and sentence construction. Let, me fill you in . I have numerous Diagnosed SEN issues Autism, Dyslexia Dyspraxia, Irlens Hearing loss since birth, at the age of 10 I had a reading age of 7. Despite all these difficulties and with a lot of help from my teacher Mother and elder highly academic Sister, passed the 11+ in Kent where I continued to struggle with sentence Construction, Comprehension appropriate Paragraphing Spacing e.tc. Due to these inherited difficulties It is very hard at times to write out a first script without obvious flaws to my writing, without the aid of Office 365 or similar. However, despite long term difficulties with the English Language, I do have a Politics Degree from Keele University. I was involved with politics for twenty five years and have held key roles in my DH's inter-generational Northwest/Southeast based business after leaving University.

I currently they have 2 girls at Grammar Schools in the South East of England and 1 Adopted boy with Autism who has an 'IQ' of 130. However, he is operating at his Comprehensive at about Grade 3 level GCSE for Maths/ English. Hence, my decision for him to repeat year 10 in a Private School next year.

Since my standard of education, was called out I think i have a right to reply. if you had seen many of my posts on other subjects, you would witness that my standard of grammar comprehension and writing goes up and down. This is a combination of all those educational difficulties at play , tiredness, reduced eye sight Dyslexia etc.

I have two girls currently at Grammar School in the South East.

Yes, this. Or Irish people are just cleverer.😀

I had a great education in Wrexham…

Grammar schools continue to select by socio economic privilege- indirectly of course- leading to greater gaps between richer and poorer that are very much evident in NI. “Better” education system depends on how you define better. An interesting comparison is with that of the south (ROI) primarily non selective but with slightly better literacy rates and lower high school dropout.

Sorry, just seen this reply.

I don't think lives are ruined by 11+ failure although it would be a factor in how young people view themselves.

Back in the day (only a couple of years before I went to secondary school), not going to grammar school meant leaving at 15 and being on a very different pathway to those who passed the 11+ or could afford private fees. Since the mid 70's we've developed a system where all pupils study the same courses up to 16 in all schools so I'm not sure of the rationale for Grammar Schools.

Either that or a clearer difference for non-selective schools. In my view a good test of the school system would be whether pupils wpuld choose the technical or vocational school over the academic school even if they were to pass the entry exam.

Of course, all this has nothing much to do with the OP

The catchment point up thread cannot be understated. Given there is no limit on distance to school there isn't the same postcode importance. You end up with some pupils traveling very long distance to their Grammars and none of the house prices direct impact.

I have had children in both English (Ofsted Excellent CoE naice village) and NI primaries (small town, 2 classes per year) and agree with comments up thread that NI are stricter on testing and homework. However I think the English teachers put more of themselves into the role - much less big standard photocopied sheets, but that is only 1 school compared to 1 school.

You really couldn’t be further from the truth with this point. NI is a post conflict society with major issues re: division & deprivation in some communities still to this day.

I’m interested in what you can possibly mean by this.

This is true to a point but it’s a matter of scale. NI is tiny! Some of the issues at play in the larger UK cities in relation to gangs, knife crime, religious fundamentalism etc are just operating on a much bigger scale due to the size of the population.

yes the Conurbations of Manchester and Birmingham alone have bigger populations of 3 Million and 2.9 Million respectively. The population of the whole of Northern Ireland is 1.9 Million and largely a Christian white population. Though, I thought Blue lights made Belfast look like downtown 'Chicago' with all the waving of Guns by the Police !

Taking away for a moment the historical and identity nature of Northern Ireland. I think you can assume in many ways it to be almost like a large Rural County . This to assume that like Cornwall or even Lincolnshire (where my sister teaches in a Grammar school) people will like Dick Whittingham will seek their fortune elsewhere. In Northern Ireland's case to England or to the Republic Of Ireland and Dublin in particular.

People will seek their employment pathway, away from where they grew up. This i suppose asks another question about Northern Ireland's future. Could Northern Ireland possibly go it alone, or be 'federated' to both the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland . A truly independent Government from both jurisdictions, could seek to look to build on her NI strengths such as a highly educated and motivated population.

And it pales into insignificance compared with some areas in England, where schools will have a majority of kids with English as a second language, chronically chaotic and insecure family and housing situations, alongside multiple generations of unemployment and financial insecurity.

I agree OP, I count myself very to have attended a grammar school in NI, even luckier that it was all-girls. Sadly now combined with the local boys' school, reducing the overall number of grammar school places for non-Catholic children. A lot of the issues associated with grammar schools in England is due to their scarcity. Very few children had extra tutoring for the 11 Plus test in the nineties.

Is it down to five non secular Girls Grammar schools in northern Ireland now. it used to be 7 didn't it and none are located outside Belfast/Bangor...

Do you mean down to 5 secular? I can think of Victoria, Strathern, Bloomfield, Glenola and one in Omagh. Sad that there are so few:(

I also find it interesting that NI was well ahead of the curve in educating girls - you just need to look at when many of these all girls' schools opened to see that.

Sorry Secular ...

NI politics is absolutely toxic and will get worse in the lead up to the assembly election. People fancying themselves as the next Charlie Kirk and RFK. They can agree on nothing and have no intention of revenue raising. Health is appalling - private is struggling under the number of people having to use that route. So the grammar schools are great but the rest not so much!

As an autistic/Asperger's girl I had a terrible experience of education in Northern Ireland, in both grammar and comprehensive schools. At the time (2000s-2010s era) SEN support was basically nonexistent and I was bullied a lot, which led to mental health problems and me having to change schools. I'm sure lots of people had good experiences of education in NI but I'm trying to show the other side of the coin. I also think writing children off at the age of 11 as "non-academic" and therefore less deserving of a good education is morally dubious.

The grammar system is so damaging for those in grammar schools and those that aren’t .All my children went to grammar schools and facilitating that was probably my biggest parenting fail.

I had a positive grammar school experience in Northern Ireland , however ,there is an excellent woman on tik tok who discusses her time at a grammar school in county down and the influence of the (protestant ) church .. in the school and how it still influences education in the grammar system

The grammar schools where DP grew up in NI were single -sex and completely toxic. When we had the option to move there I noted that it would be over my dead body before our DCs were put into that system. The high school (mixed) did not serve it's constituents well either - it was very much regarded as the dumping ground/ holding space for the differently academic children.