To think the 'Troubles Northern Ireland 1969-1997' ensured the Grammar system stayed in operation In Northern Ireland, thus is now the best education system in the United Kingdom.

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I do wonder if the Troubles that were ongoing in Northern Ireland between 1969-1997 meant that there was to much going on for the destruction of Grammar Schools to begin. Throughout, the 1960s and 1970s over 1000 Grammar schools were closed in England and Wales going from 1,296 in 1965 1 to the present 164 .The present 164 are in located usually in traditionally Conservative local areas in England. The Most Northern being Ripon Grammar in North Yorkshire, the most southern being Churston Ferrers in Torbay Devon. The survival of the current Grammar schools being down to local councils and County Councils such as Kent and Trafford acting against Government demands initially from Harold Wilson's 1965 Labour Government and then from across the political spectrum, with Margaret Thatcher closing more Grammar Schools than Labour.

However, it is obvious that with all that was going on in Northern Ireland political left wing dogma about Education in the 1970's was not at the forefront of discussion. The, result being that the destruction of the education system that was going on in England and left Wales devoid of any Grammar Schools did not take place in Northern Ireland. The result which is often backed up when i meet people from Northern Ireland being that the Grammar School system has advanced those from Northern Ireland to be the most educated in the United Kingdom. Therefore, it makes me quite sad that now Northern Ireland is politically 'stable' that Sein Fein are acting like any left wing political party and seeking the abolition of the Transfer Tests (known in England as the 11+). Why, cant Sein Fein except that one of the 'benefits' of the Troubles was an education system that has educated Catholics and Protestants greatly above those from say Wrexham. Indeed the Catholic and Non Secular Grammar Schools in Northern Ireland have ensured that only a very small Private Sector needs to exist.

I think the system in NI isn’t perfect but no one has really articulated an alternative.

Hants is an all comp county with good schools.

Are you sure a grammar system is equally good for those that don't pass?
There is so much angst about 11+ it is nice to live in an area where it isn't needed.

Have you got stats to show NI gets better results?

Our grammar system in NI is fantastic but I do really feel for any child that ends up in a regular academy/high school - they are so underfunded in comparison to the rest of the UK and I believe that it’s ridiculous that a test taken at age 10/11 can effectively ruin a child’s future in some circumstances.

My own DD excelled at the 11+ and went to a high profile Belfast grammar. It does always amaze our family over in England etc that she had such a wonderful education for free, meanwhile they’re paying £££££ for private schooling with lesser results.

"Are you sure a grammar system is equally good for those that don't pass?"

Every year in 6th lower at the rural grammar school I went to, there was an intake of pupils from the high school who had come to do their A levels, having done well at GCSE. So they got another bite at the cherry. I work with some people who went to the high school- they said they had good teachers and their level of education is good.

There are indeed stats that show pupils in NI do better at GCSE & A level than their counterparts in the rest of the UK - can easily be found with a quick Google.

OP, the grammar school system is regressive and unfair.

I have taught in state comprehensives for 20 years and have sent children to both Cambridge and straight to work. I celebrate all of their achievements.

Lives are ruined by arbitrary tests at 10 years old. Anyone with any knowledge of child development knows it’s a marathon, not a sprint.

One of my children attended a grammar in NI, the other two attended an integrated secondary.
The two who attended the integrated school were taught very strategic methods of achieving results and both get 1st class degrees although they're actually not very academic.
My daughter also achieved excellent results but is so much more academic and came so close to a 1st but didn't quite get there.
Degree classifications are quite irrelevant but it really encapsulates the difference in the schools for me.
The integrated students were taught how to work the system to best advantage and it's stuck with them.They didn't learn Latin or study French, German and Spanish but they aimed at a 1st class degree and pursued it relentlessly. Daughter has a really well grounded educational backgrounds, her siblings not so much.She takes a huge pride in being a grammar school alumni, her siblings don't really reflect on their school background.

Good, will be easy for the OP making the assertion to back up with links then.

So what do you see as the purpose of separating children at 11 if the same courses are offered at all schools.

Here are some details from the Nuffield Foundation from 2021

New study compares pupil performance across UK nations and reveals different results from established international PISA tests - Nuffield Foundation

The success of grammar schools in raising the opportunities of working class youngsters had to be put back in the box somehow or it would potentially upset the "natural" order. Traitorous behaviour at the time under the fig leaf of discrimination, by middle class Labour Party so-called supporters.

This has been debunked as the role of grammar schools was vastly overstated. The chances of grammar school pupils in the 1960s were vastly improved by full employment as a result of the death toll (and ensuing lost generation) in WWI.

"So what do you see as the purpose of separating children at 11 if the same courses are offered at all schools."
I don't see the point of segregating by religion either (my children go to an integrated primary school). But if it ain't broke don't fix it.
How are lives "ruined" by failing the 11+?

Grammar Schools ate great for the pupils in them.

What about those who are not in them?

We deliberately moved out of an 11+ area in England as it was clear DD wouldn't pass and the other options are dire. But now, over the past few years, she's on track for 6-8s at GCSE (with the 6 being in English where she struggles the most with her dyslexia). Shes doing 8 GCSEs and 1 BTEC as she can mix the academic subjects with the Vocational.

Hi OP, I grew up in Belfast during the Troubles and remember the furore at the idea of comprehensive education when it was first mooted My understanding is that it was nothing to with the political situation, rather the absolute refusal of the Grammar schools, supported by the Education Board, to dumb down what was (and still is it seems) the highest level of Education in the UK. Bear in mind, these weren't, in many cases, grammar schools as such. The oldest schools, like BRA, Methody etc, had been opened to give the children of the Planters the same level of education as the English public schools, so there's a whole other aspect to that. It was this system particularly that they did not want to lose.

And the NI exam board, certainly when I was at school, had the reputation of being harder than any of the UK exam boards.

Shame there's not some local burgeoning industries ready to take the 'better-educated' NI grammar school kids on.

FGS - scraping the barrel a bit aren't we OP? The Grammar School system went to shit years ago - hard to believe now but un-privately tutored poor kids did actually pass the 11+ and go to Grammar School based on nothing more than their academic ability back in the day.

Ooops, never mind the stress of living through a constant threat in the background; reduced since the GFA but always simmering....some MNutter comes up with some reductive factoid about how NI is better served educationally.

A lot to unpack here. Smacks of the philosophy of allowing bright working class pupils to mix with their "betters".

Also, if Grammar Schools are the way to raise opportunities it is still being rationed. Only the top 20 or 25% can attend and, amazingly or maybe not, a low proportion of these turn out to be from less well-off backgrounds.

I'm all for selection if someone can articulate beyond vague incantations of excellence how the different schools are organised. And for me, if pupils who pass the 11+ (or 13+ or whatever) nevertheless choose the non-selective school that would be evidence tha the system is working.

"So what do you see as the purpose of separating children at 11 if the same courses are offered at all schools."

They aren't. That's what I'm talking about. Children moved from the high school to the grammar after GCSEs .

Well surely its only good for those that pass the 11+ ?
Not so much for those that don't
Im not sure i would have wanted to live through the troubles just to have a Grammar school system there were some pretty horrific murders..

Yes I have had a look at the websites of Methodist,Victoria College and Strathearn School . Methodist College looks like a Public School with the voluntary fees of £140 per year gosh ! Victoria College I believe was the last Girls State Grammar to Offer Boarding until Covid put an end to that. Strathearn I Understand is the highest performing school in Northern Ireland at GCSE/ A Levels. However, Thornhill College (Derry girls) is exceptional given the academic achievements with what in England would be regarded as very high FSM numbers.

The Grammar Schools of Northern Ireland are perhaps 'one reason' when/if a Border Poll takes place that Northern Ireland will remain in the United Kingdom. Perhaps this is why Micheal O Neil (A Grammar school girl herself, hence unless Angela Raynor can be understood) wants to abolish Grammar Schools. She, knows that the chance of a Grammar School education is a winning vote for continuation. The, number of Grammar schools in Northern Ireland is 63 for a population of 1.9 Million England has 164 for circa 55 Million . England would need some '1823' Grammar Schools Wales some '100' Grammar Schools. Due to the number of Grammar Schools available in Northern Ireland must mean everybody who should go to Grammar school does, the 'madness' that happens in English Grammar Areas is not a thing.

What about children who are talented or indeed gifted in maths but not English or vice versa? What can a grammar school attain that decent setting in a comprehensive cannot? I would have got a grammar school place, my children would likely get grammar school places, but as a teacher I cannot see how it is a good system for those who don't get a place.

Methody ‘voluntary’ fees are actually around £1200 per year..! Not very voluntary in our experience either - I didn’t pay in DD’s final year (she was having severe health issues and they were woefully unsupportive, effectively taught herself the majority of her A level content alongside private tutoring) yet they absolutely hounded me for it for a whole year afterwards.

The Grammar Schools of Northern Ireland are perhaps 'one reason' when/if a Border Poll takes place that Northern Ireland will remain in the United Kingdom.

I doubt it. There are grammar schools in the Republic, albeit fee paying. These are the kinds of issues that would be hammered out in the case of reunification. Certainly, as someone who raised a child in the South, I would welcome the input of the NI schools, there is far too little choice of schooling here.

Grammars are an excellent system and it’s so sad it’s been decimated by the jealous