To think the 'Troubles Northern Ireland 1969-1997' ensured the Grammar system stayed in operation In Northern Ireland, thus is now the best education system in the United Kingdom.

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I do wonder if the Troubles that were ongoing in Northern Ireland between 1969-1997 meant that there was to much going on for the destruction of Grammar Schools to begin. Throughout, the 1960s and 1970s over 1000 Grammar schools were closed in England and Wales going from 1,296 in 1965 1 to the present 164 .The present 164 are in located usually in traditionally Conservative local areas in England. The Most Northern being Ripon Grammar in North Yorkshire, the most southern being Churston Ferrers in Torbay Devon. The survival of the current Grammar schools being down to local councils and County Councils such as Kent and Trafford acting against Government demands initially from Harold Wilson's 1965 Labour Government and then from across the political spectrum, with Margaret Thatcher closing more Grammar Schools than Labour.

However, it is obvious that with all that was going on in Northern Ireland political left wing dogma about Education in the 1970's was not at the forefront of discussion. The, result being that the destruction of the education system that was going on in England and left Wales devoid of any Grammar Schools did not take place in Northern Ireland. The result which is often backed up when i meet people from Northern Ireland being that the Grammar School system has advanced those from Northern Ireland to be the most educated in the United Kingdom. Therefore, it makes me quite sad that now Northern Ireland is politically 'stable' that Sein Fein are acting like any left wing political party and seeking the abolition of the Transfer Tests (known in England as the 11+). Why, cant Sein Fein except that one of the 'benefits' of the Troubles was an education system that has educated Catholics and Protestants greatly above those from say Wrexham. Indeed the Catholic and Non Secular Grammar Schools in Northern Ireland have ensured that only a very small Private Sector needs to exist.

As a working class girl from a single parent family, I was extremely fortunate to go to an excellent grammar in NI, back in the eighties. I had an excellent education which enabled me to go to Queen’s, and like a lot of us, escape to London after graduating. I doubt if I’d have managed it at a comp, and I am eternally grateful that I had the opportunity. My husband went to an expensive boarding school, but I think my education was easily as good as his. I would have loved my son to go to a similar school, but don’t live in the UK now.

Not clear what you mean here. England is awash with private sector opportunities and always has been. The workforce is not dependent on a depressed public sector. Also there is a culture of English employers treating employees a lot better. Some things never change.

At university, I noted that private schools have an edge over NI grammar schools (despite popular opinion to the contrary). This was noticeable in terms of experiences, opportunities to study different things in depth and privately educated peers were massively endowed with confidence. Some of them had not got the slightest clue what they were talking about but, with bags of confidence, sounded impressive. :-D

This varies and is at the school’s discretion. My eldest did a few papers in Year 11 (equivalent to Year 10 in England) but the bulk of the exams were in Year 12. For example, the Spanish Department chose not to split the exams and the pupils completed all papers at the end of Year 12 exams. Basically, it gives schools flexibility. Having exams after one year is great for some children and terrible for others. My son definitely wasn’t ready to do a bunch of official exams in Year 11. He did far better in the Year 12. NI GCSE’s can absolutely be compared with those in the rest of the UK. The curriculum is very similar and standards here are high.

I would question who you think it is best for?

Is it best for SEN students who, last time I checked, were being educated under legislation which dates from 1995 and have no provision past the age of 18? (Other UK students have benefited from more recent legislation & have substantial support built in until they are 25).

Is it best for the children who are told that they have failed aged 10 or 11, while their peers gloat & punch the air with joy and go off to a school which is laden with considerably more privilege and future networking opportunities?

Is it best for the students who leave school with no qualifications?

Or is it just best for the students whose parents have paid for them to have tutoring and who have been able to go off and learn Latin and get top GCSE & A level results as a result of hothoused support?

I went to two very well known grammar schools in NI, I did get a great education but it is not the be all and end all. It is also not comparable to private schools, which a different type of confidence and self-belief behind academics.
Some grammars are incredibly competitive get into, but this can be by popularity/location but they get their results by having the highest score admitted and not through anything special they are doing. Also pastoral care can be dreadful - well known at some of the name checked schools on this thread.

DH went to a non-selective secondary and got an equally solid education. The secondaries are also different from the UK comprehensive system and many achieve solid results.

Overall the national curriculum is slightly different here with higher focus on maths and English for primary, but most of it comes from the attitude to education as the majority of parents encourage the 11+/SEAG preparation and schools tend to have stricter discipline.

It is not all roses though, as obviously children are disadvantaged if the parents can’t commit to help at home/afford tutors and Protestant working class boys are one of the most disadvantaged groups in the UK (another legacy of the Troubles).

The catholic ones do better. On a recent Sunday Times assessment out of the top ten I think seven were catholic schools.

What structure do you think best allows all kids to achieve their potential both academic children (think Latin/Philosophy) and the “straight to work cohort”?

Obviously state comprehensives. The ‘straight to work’ cohort are written off in the grammar system. Even the fact it’s called the ‘grammar system’ tell you everything you need to know about how the system treats those who don’t get in.

I live in an 11+ county. It is awful and only benefits people who are able to pay for a tutor or have the privilege of time and knowledge to help their dc by themselves. There are plenty of bright working class pupils in primary who aren't even entered by their parents because they don't have time to coach for the test and plenty of middle class children who are coached through but wouldn't have stood a chance if it went on school grades.

Whoever wrote the OP clearly didn't fully benefit from the NI Grammar system, notably with regard to punctuation and sentence construction.

Sorry for the broad brush strokes here, but do you mean that all kids should be taught together, working at the pace of the least academic?

Or would you expect to see streaming within each year group?

I agree entirely with the poster who said that there were historically very limited opportunities in NI that weren’t farming or public sector. I was always encouraged to “get out”- and the way to do that was to go to Uni across the water.

I think it’s the combination of respect for education plus choice at secondary (choice in education systems is apparently correlated with improved performance). Teaching is highly competitive and there is no truck with modern fads.

But having seen what happened to my SEN nephew, I’m quite glad my children are not educated there. And he only got into a grammar because family pulled strings - which would be unthinkable here.

They are all over the internet if you do a quick Google. It’s definitely a thing.

Pointless comment. No amount of logical fallacies will miraculously make the English secondary education system better than the Northern Irish.

Also don’t forget NI has nowhere near the levels of social issues that England has to cope with.

I don't have any recent knowledge of either. I was just making a point about the irony of writing about excellence in education systems, but using badly written language.

We ‘set’ at our school (most do) in maths/science and teach in mixed ability for other subjects. There are interventions (maths, reading, English) for the lower prior attainers.

Thats not my experience of the NI education system at all. Where I'm from, the secondaries/ comprehensives are fantastic also.

I’ve worked in both the English and Northern Irish education systems, including for an education board. There are some key differences in the systems that do not make one better than the other. They both have positives and negatives.

A key difference that has already been mentioned on the thread is societal attitude to education and education professionals. NI parents, and therefore students, shown much more respect to schools and teachers. Parents on the whole were much more supportive and held their children to account for poor performance or behaviour.

As to the difference in results at GCSE, the English and NI exam boards use different methods to ensure fairness in results from year to year. The English more proportional method means that the percentage getting the ‘pass’ and top grades remains roughly the same. NI use a different approach that is not quite so fixed. Therefore it is not really possible for the English results to be as high as the NI results, regardless of the ‘quality’ of education.

Completely agree - one of my DC has wet to a non-selective secondary, it was the best choice for them but I was initially skeptical having been through grammar myself. However the secondary (and all the ones I considered) are fantastic. Especially compared to my friend’s children in rest of the UK.

Does NI suffer the same way with there being good schools in more affluent areas... but things in poorer areas failing despite their best efforts?

Teaching is generally held in higher esteem as a ‘good job’ to have here. It was a main option for anyone reasonably smart who wanted to stay in NI and not move away, rather than a ‘fall back’ option as there was limited private sector careers until recently.

@TheNightingalesStarling there are areas of severe deprivation (eg North and West Belfast) where the schools would only pull from that area, however there isn’t a catchment area as such for school applications so attendance tends to be wider.
I worked in a school adjacent industry for several years, so I have been to basically every school in the country and there was only 1 or 2 that were concerning.

It is in some areas, in some of the larger towns the schools are verging on failing, with very poor outcomes for most students particularly where we have pockets of some of the highest social deprivation in the UK and the lowest social mobility. Education is a ladder and sadly one pulled from an increasing number of our young people. The impact continues into FE.

And don't underestimate the effect of the Church - the Catholic Church in those areas would have been a massive source of extra support.

I think that the Catholics didn't have the same brain drain that the Protestant community had - certainly nearly half of my grammar school year went to England/Scotland for uni and many stayed there to the detriment of their home communities, whilst I think more of the Catholic crowd stayed at home. I think that's contributing to the disenfrachisement of the working class Protestant males that we see going on - the middle class bit of that community has either moved out or moved on.