To think the 'Troubles Northern Ireland 1969-1997' ensured the Grammar system stayed in operation In Northern Ireland, thus is now the best education system in the United Kingdom.

[redange]

I do wonder if the Troubles that were ongoing in Northern Ireland between 1969-1997 meant that there was to much going on for the destruction of Grammar Schools to begin. Throughout, the 1960s and 1970s over 1000 Grammar schools were closed in England and Wales going from 1,296 in 1965 1 to the present 164 .The present 164 are in located usually in traditionally Conservative local areas in England. The Most Northern being Ripon Grammar in North Yorkshire, the most southern being Churston Ferrers in Torbay Devon. The survival of the current Grammar schools being down to local councils and County Councils such as Kent and Trafford acting against Government demands initially from Harold Wilson's 1965 Labour Government and then from across the political spectrum, with Margaret Thatcher closing more Grammar Schools than Labour.

However, it is obvious that with all that was going on in Northern Ireland political left wing dogma about Education in the 1970's was not at the forefront of discussion. The, result being that the destruction of the education system that was going on in England and left Wales devoid of any Grammar Schools did not take place in Northern Ireland. The result which is often backed up when i meet people from Northern Ireland being that the Grammar School system has advanced those from Northern Ireland to be the most educated in the United Kingdom. Therefore, it makes me quite sad that now Northern Ireland is politically 'stable' that Sein Fein are acting like any left wing political party and seeking the abolition of the Transfer Tests (known in England as the 11+). Why, cant Sein Fein except that one of the 'benefits' of the Troubles was an education system that has educated Catholics and Protestants greatly above those from say Wrexham. Indeed the Catholic and Non Secular Grammar Schools in Northern Ireland have ensured that only a very small Private Sector needs to exist.

My BIL grew up in NI, he failed his 11-plus back in the 90s. His dad was the headteacher of his primary school and basically pulled strings to get him into the grammar school - he’s a very intelligent man who had a bad day and luckily his dad was in a position to rectify it, but what about all those who are not so lucky? I just don’t see what’s gained by dividing pupils at 11 (and I say that a someone who was very academic who went to a comprehensive school, and perhaps wasn’t as ‘stretched’ as I could have been at a private school. My parents were very anti private education). I wish everyone could have the benefit of a top class education.

No problem.

The end of "The Troubles" was mentioned by the OP but I'm mainly (genuinely) interested into why results in NI are higher than other UK nations and regions. My question was whether there were other differences beyond a selective system that brings this about. It does seem very useful to know the answer since (I assume) the NI system is more likely to yield useful lessons for education policy in London, Leith or Lincolnshire than looking at Shanghai or Finland as we have have done in the past.

I do find much better exchanges of ideas on mumsnet than e.g. Facebook pages or the comments section of newspapers.

PISA is a test that countries across the world do that is designed by the OECD to be independent of education systems and country specific qualifications. Specifically so they can make comparisons between countries.

PISA stats are an international measure that seeks to take a random sample from many countries and test, I think, 14 year olds in a way that attempts to get as fair a comparison as possible. The English medium PISA tests in the UK and Ireland would be rhe same across all nations and regions.

I couldn't honestly say, I've been away so long now. I do agree with pps though, that there is a great respect for education in Ireland generally.

Beat me to it and probably described better.

I know. But these kinds of comparisons are never a perfect science and as LC and A levels prioritise very different things, I feel direct comparisons would never be particularly useful.

Education in ROI is also amazing, btw, don't get me wrong. Schools in Ireland seem to have avoided many of the elements that have caused problems elsewhere.

During the Troubles, schools did a lot of heavy lifting here. They were the only safe place for many children and really stepped up to the task.

I think we have more respect for schools and teachers than elsewhere in the UK. So it attracts great candidates and staff turnover seems to be lower.

I also think both NI and ROI are happy with the approach they've taken to education and neither would have much interest in switching at this point.

I agree PISA has shortcomings- one being that in countries that take lots of tests (like England nowadays or NI which might have lots of children prepping for the eleven plus)... surprise surprise, children get better at taking tests.

no comparison of test results is a 'perfect science', but as they sit PISA at 15 I'm not sure what point you're making around LC and A Levels? And the fact England outperformed NI in the most recent is pretty damning to the OP's original argument, no?

@TheTimeTravellersNiece You are right that different exam boards differed in terms of difficulty and that universities knew this but I disagree that NI boards were the hardest - I did Oxford and Cambridge and they were always seen as the hardest. The whole point was that o’levels distinguished those who could think at a certain level and with Ox/Cambs it was another level again - NI was more applied.

Yes- and I agree they should be! especially around the much greater respect for schools and teachers than in the UK. But the OP tried to make a point about grammars based on test data that just isn't there supporting their argument.

Sorry, my own point of reference on this thread was focused at the latter stages where the approaches most diverge. At 15, there's still quite a way to go in secondary education.

As for the England comparison, how do NI A level outcomes compare to England I wonder? One of the most notable aspects of the NI system is that it is almost all for free (or very minimal cost compared to elsewhere).

I wondered if Northern Ireland had better attendance rates than the UK but we're worse apparently:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-67158024

Selective memory or what OP. I came off a Californian 'banana boat' in the 70s, passed the 11+ and went to a Grammar that was phased out during my education purely because the Govt of the time thought it was a brill idea. I believe it was a Labour govt at the time.

And fuck me sideways - but the very same 'boys version' of My School became an Independent School that a Son of a Toolmaker and a Nurse went to at the very same time.

Now there's a bit of Social Mobility that I think we should all revisit.

TheHateIsNotGood · Today 22:41Selective memory or what OP. I came off a Californian 'banana boat' in the 70s, passed the 11+ and went to a Grammar that was phased out during my education purely because the Govt of the time thought it was a brill idea. I believe it was a Labour govt at the time.
And fuck me sideways - but the very same 'boys version' of My School became an Independent School that a Son of a Toolmaker and a Nurse went to at the very same time.
Now there's a bit of Social Mobility that I think we should all revisit.

Are you from the US than and the 11+ Grammar Schools must have been completely bizarre to you. They, are a couple of EX Pat Americans 'UK ' Citizens now on You Tube who both attempted the 11+ and despite both being highly educated with Degrees and Masters from UK Universities . They found the 11+ extremely difficult in the time constraints !

No, not from the US but spent my Elementary education there. Just a wierd, young, smart kid. Who passed the 11+ and yes I did indeed find that Grammar School was way wierd. But I'd lived in California and had visited the UK often so wierd was normal.

Also in Calif at the time they had a 'Mentally Gifted' test which was similar to the 11+ and if you passed you got to go do lots of fun stuff like make movies, ride on BART and visit woods.

So I passed both the fun test and the 11+. Decades later as a mature student at a UK Uni my lecturers were teaching me how only the well off kids went to Grammar Schools because their parents could afford tutoring.

I said no that wasn't true as I passed without without tutoring. The Lecturer's response was "well you must have been very smart then".

Well Dude yeah, that's the general idea isn't it?

The private sector isn’t a great place to work in NI, compared to England. People who want to stay there often have to work in the NHS, civil service or education. That’s where the best jobs are. I don’t think the same can be said for England.

Also, I’ve been told by university staff that statistically the secondary sector in NI spits out a lot of people who no qualifications whatsoever. There are, of course, lots of amazing secondary schools there too. There is a cultural awareness of how education can lead to upward social mobility, particularly among Catholics, who suffered significant discrimination in the past.

As an ex grammar school student of one of the schools above, I did well under the grammar school system. I recall the horrible time & atmosphere when a dyslexic sibling failed their test, aged 10. Said sibling is now extremely successful with a Maths degree from a Russell group University and a stellar career.

A lot of students are tutored into the grammar schools and I feel the system is unfair and writes a lot of students off at a very young age.

I voted YANBU but there are many reasons why pupils from NI do so well. The grammar system is one! I felt so very lucky 🍀 that my children went to Grammar schools, got great degrees (as a college lecturer I can confirm that unis across the water LOVE NI students) and went on to fabulous careers. One of the biggest reasons pupils do so well is peer pressure in the grammar schools. It’s completely normal for the young people to always do homework and study because ALL their friends do and it’s very normal to get 12 GCSEs. I often wonder if the religious nature of the place has a bearing? As I’ve said as a further education lecturer here in NI even the students who come to the ‘tech’ have at least 5 GCSEs and my current class all have English and Maths, never display bad behaviour and will complain if they think you’ve not taught them enough!

And this is all true too you have to be very strategic if you want to get a job that’s not caring, teaching or farming here, all of mine went to England to work

So we can not look forward to a series of Educating Belfast then ! Therefore, I suspect it would be quite boring for Channel 4, and need a lot of editing to put just one Program out....

I wonder though how many Private Sector opportunities , there will be in England shortly ?

Are all grammars equal? Or are catholic or Protestant ones better?

I agree with the poster upthread who suggested that it is the supportive culture from parents that is the difference - education was very much seen as an escape route from low incomes and teachers were to be respected. It still is from what I hear from family there.

I was at primary school up until 1987 and DD is shocked when I tell her about the monthly tests that we did in a state school and your results were linked to your desk position - 1st in class equal 1st desk and last in class equals last desk etc and this was after they had already streamed the year into two classes - one college bound and one tech college bound.

NI has great results at one end of the scale but it also has the highest rate of kids leaving secondary education with no qualifications whatsoever, and an appalling record in terms of SEN support.