To think that some women care more about their careers than their families and that this isn’t always a good thing?

[ThatRedBeaker]

Not trying to start a war but I’ve noticed a growing trend where some women (not all!) seem to put their career above everything, including their partner or kids. Obviously, everyone has the right to pursue success but I do wonder if there’s a point where it becomes too much. Like… is it unreasonable to think that some people might be prioritising the wrong things?

Genuinely curious what others think.

I disagree with the OP, in that I think every woman I know prioritises their children in their own way (whether by working FT++ with oodles of paid help, or by being a SAHP, or anything in between). Whatever they have to do and choose to do to work things as best as possible for their individual families and circumstances.

My partner and I personally feel that it is important for our children to have some time with us during the week. We wouldn’t feel comfortable with the children having to be taken to school and put to bed by a nanny most days. In our field, flexible working and WFH is not really possible. As such, I’ve made the choice to move sideways in my career to something similar that enables me to stay and finish at more reasonable times. Partner could have done similar - but one of us needed to in order to get a balance we were comfortable with.

I’m thrilled that I get to be a rubbish feminist as I’ve allowed my kids to impact my career, whilst also being a rubbish mum as my children still need wraparound care most days.

Exactly. I think some people don't understand this.

The only reason why I can be so flexible now is because I didn't go part time or stop working completely which means I have a big say over my schedule and by the time they are in school? I won't need to use wraparound care at all due to the flexibility I only have by working full time and my senior role.

Sorry, it was your comment “What century am I in” made me think you thought that flexible working was the norm. The clue is in non-operational roles. I’m also ex-civil service. Where my husband works there is a degree of flexibility. His team predominately WFH and he does allow parents to do school pick up as long as the work gets done. Sad to say he does have female staff who are reluctant to travel overseas who don’t want to leave their children for 1-2 weeks at a time especially if the children are pre-school and he’s had to be firm and insist they go. He’s never got such pushback from male staff.

but he never faces any pushback from male staff.

That would be because he’s a man. Because as a female leader, trust me, they push back.

Absolutely.

My personal favourite was when a male employee informed me he wouldn’t take instruction from his mother.

Cool. This isn’t your house, and I’m not your mother.

More women work part time or find hours around school time or WFH and subsequently have to work around their children a lot than men do. They’re also still generally paid less than men.

More women also still pick up most of the slack with their children and the household whilst working than men. I think there are still huge disparities here between the sexes by and large and you would find far more men prioritising work over their family than women.

Of course it’s teamwork. My children too were privately educated from prep school then to University. I did go back to work part time when they were 11/12.

Given my children are now in their 30s and live independently your point is mute.

I think there are some parents who use their work as a means of avoiding spending more time with their children than they can cope with, yes. I see men like this everywhere. I do see women like this too (though to a lesser extent). Especially people on the autistic spectrum actually - they need the routine of a job and don't understand how to get through a day with kids on your own, when nobody is structuring the day for you and you have to just make it up as you go. They don't even see the point of spending more time with their kids. They think seeing them in the evenings is "doing it all."

They know they can't cope with more than a few hours a day,, so they overly identify with the importance of their work to justify this, rather than just admitting, "you know what, I find long stints with my kids too boring or overwhelming."

Men have been able to do this since living memory. Women do this too, though it's harder for them to admit.

Too many people desperately overestimate the importance of what are, in essence, fairly mundane jobs in the scheme of things. Some people make their work role their whole identity, even though nobody really has a clue or cares what it is they actually do. It's usually men, and it's very tedious. But there are women like this too.

Well no but if they were privately educated, so in school all day, and your husband worked away a lot - it seems a fair stretch to claim anyone was with them full time.

This is exactly my point! Men think nothing of describing themselves as family men, I’ve started describing myself as a family
woman as an act of micro feminism. If it makes anyone think twice, I’ve made my point

100%, this is me too. I climbed to quite a senior level before having kids, which means I do get to have more flexibility than most because not many people can do my job.

Oh I see! Love it! Do you also babysit your own DC occasionally? 😉

You posted that your husband regularly worked away so he wasn’t around for teamwork - doing the school run, taking to after activities, covering for sick days, booking dental appointments etc

That’s interesting and goes back to my point as to what decade you’re talking about. The workplace is very different today than it was 30 years ago, heck it’s different from 6 years ago thanks to Covid. My parents managed to juggle full time working 30 years ago so it wasn’t impossible; but it’s much easier now I think. With more wraparound care, stronger employee rights around flexible working etc, whilst not everyone can work flexibly a huge chunk of the population do, even my husband who is in the military a heavily operational role. Add to the fact lifestyles and housing are more expensive today so for many it’s less of a choice meaning there are more dual working households, I think your original posts are quite out of touch for the current context.

I do! I babysit so he can do the shopping and cleaning in peace ;)

edit to add that I expect a medal for doing the bare minimum for the child and husband that I voluntarily committed to

Surely for a married couple as a whole - the kids come first. You then need to decide the best way to provide for them? What the balance is between careers and also the caring side of parenting

It isn't relevant now because they are in their 30's but I do find it interesting that you seem to be judging parents who are still spending more time with their young children than your own DH ever did.

That’s correct. He wasn’t around much from when the children were 5/6. Probably away for around 5/6 months per year. We still worked as a team though. We still communicated and made important decisions jointly. Teamwork doesn’t always require all parties to be in the same house. I was a STAHM so he had no need to do these things. When he was at home he was very much a hands on dad.

Well we haven't had thread by a TheeWordPoster denigrating women and not engaging in the discussion they claim to want for quite a while.

But it's impossible for two parents who work full time to do that?

Some people do use work as a convenient excuse to avoid their kids though. They can only be with them in short bursts and they know it.

Who are these ‘some people’?

There is a point that I think is important especially in response to posts saying a man wouldn't put children above career etc. Or wouldn't be criticised for his choices. Women have maternal instincts that are very different from a man's. Not just a biological thing from birthing but also a natural female thing around young, in the way adoptive parents can have incredibly strong maternal instincts too. If a woman is more obsessed with her child than her partner this isn't a reflection on him or a fault but her own natural instincts being stronger. This is a good thing mostly and we shouldn't be fighting it. Unfortunately this makes most of us feel guilty, a guilt men don't seem to experience. That guilt can make us question our life choices more than we should and also can make us defensive a about it too.