All our children are different religions, Christmas is feeling overwhelming

[Ellipsie]

DH and I have 4 children, all now adults, all married. We are CofE Christians, our children were raised CofE Christians and Christmas for us has always been religion first.

Our eldest DD married a lovely Muslim and converted to Islam. Her 2 children are being raised Muslim.
Our youngest DD married her best friend from secondary school, he is Jewish, he leans liberal and isn’t as devout as DD1s family, but they celebrate Jewish holidays, go to synagogue for Yom Kipur/Rosh Hashanah etc. and always without fail have Shabbat dinner with his family. Their daughter is now 3 so more aware than in previous years.
Both of our DS are loosely Christian, church on Easter and Christmas only but do view Christmas as being religion first.

For our daughters they both have different approaches to Christmas.
My eldest daughter doesn’t want any presents for her children for Christmas, she has asked we celebrate them at Eid instead, which is of course understandable and absolutely fine. They will be joining us for dinner on Christmas Day though.
Our youngest daughter has a different approach where by they still celebrate Christmas “culturally”, so they do Father Christmas and have a Christmas tree etc. They also allow us to give their child a gift at Christmas.

Now our grandchildren are no longer babies I am finding it all a bit tricky to navigate. This year we have 7 grandchildren.
Our eldest DDs 2 children are now 4 and 2, our eldest son has a 3 year old and a 1 year old, our younger son has a 2 year old and a newborn and our youngest daughter has a 3 year old.

This is the first year we will be hosting Christmas with children who are aware of what’s going on. I’m terrified that as DD1 doesn’t want us give her children gifts they are going to feel awful as we will be giving the others gifts. I thought we could get around this by having our grandchildren who will get gifts come over earlier and receive them but as DD2 isn’t Christian and doesn’t do church that won’t be possible.

At the same time I’m also terrified about getting the language right, Christmas has always been religious for us, but now I’m thinking do I need to present everything as “well granny and grandad believe this, but others don’t”?

It’s got me very stressed out and I don’t want to upset or offend any of my children.

AIBU to struggle with this? Does anyone have any advice or ideas on how I can make this work?

And before the Christian church came along others celebrated the winter solstice, Yule, Saturnalia, Sol Invictus, and so on. The tradition to gather and feast and celebrate has absolutely nothing to do with CHRIST, the church chose to imply Jesus was born on Dec 25 in order to get the pagans to convert.

I'm agnostic, so it's all nonsense to me. All religions, including Islam, Christianity & Judaism, have very implausible, easy to mock, origin 'stories'. Their holy books clearly build on, and steal ideas from, previous orally-shared tales that try to explain why the world is like it is, and how to have a good life.

But I do understand that religion is very important to those that believe. So, if DD1 wants her beliefs to be respected at Eid, she should be similarly willing to respect her parents' beliefs at Christmas when in their house.

She's being controlling and unreasonable. And is setting a terrible example to her young children of how different faiths could and should happily coexist.

How will she react if one of her children grows up and decides to leave Islam, or is same-sex attracted, or both? DD1 changed her religion, will they have the same freedom to choose a different life? Obviously not a discussion for now, but there may be problems if she cannot be more flexible and reasonable. Teenagers will not be so bothered about keeping the collective peace.

Come now. You have to go back a hell of a long way to claim that Christmas in the UK isn’t about the birth of Christ.

You have to go back a fairly long way to claim Christmas isn’t about consumerism to be fair!

My dad was from the north east of Scotland. Christmas wasn't a thing when he was a child. He didn't get time off school or work. Everything revolved around New Year. Then American Christmas ideas started to filter in from relatives and friends who had moved to Canada and the USA. They still mainly talk about Santa, not the English Father Christmas.

Anyway, back to the OP, sounds to me like it has little to do with the religious differences and more about DD1 asserting her independence from the rest of the family and any attempt to engage her on the ins and outs of UK Christmas culture will be futile and will cause the schism she probably wants.

I think you sound very thoughtful

Christmas wasn’t even a public holiday in Scotland until 1958!!!! Too Catholic to celebrate Christmas apparently lol

Your dd1 is being extremely intolerant and unreasonable. It sounds like she feels she has to prove something. Is it possible that ahe is using her new found religion just to create conflict / hide other issues? I don't know a single person from any religion who would object to their child receiving a xmas present. It's also pretty extreme that she didn't attend her brother's weddings just because they were in churches. I don't know what the answer is. Id like to say to just ignore your dd and stop pandering to her but if this was my child I wouldnt want to push her away either no matter how unreasonable she is.

Could you speak to her husband? He sounds more reasonable.

Me and my older sister don’t get on and I was really fed up of arguments spoiling family Christmases. I want my daughter to be able to enjoy that special day with grandparents without the tension. So we alternate years. We’re all atheists, but with your daughters it sounds like DD1 would find something to get at DD2 about even without the religious aspect.

DD1 sounds very controlling. Does DD2 feel ok with DD1 being there? What about your other DC?

A lot of people are saying you should prioritize the family all being together. I disagree. Set some boundaries. Uninvite DD1 and see her and DGC on any other day of the year.

OP, from where I’m standing, the whole problem is caused by DD1 being so obdurate and insisting on no presents for her DC. As a grandmother, I would find it almost impossible not to give my DGC a present of some description - could you not just give her DC a book (unwrapped) from Granny? The fact that she would refuse a present for her children rather than seen to be in any way joining in with a Christian festival, yet insists in coming for Christmas dinner strikes me as simply her being difficult. I don’t see my DGC very often, so tend to give them a little something, even if it’s just a small bag of chocolate raisins - I think it’s a grandparent’s prerogative to be able to give a small present to the DGC, and I think your DD is being nothing short of mean and difficult.

Those poor children.

I think DD1 is being a bit unreasonable.. surely you can give your grandchildren gifts any day of the week... it just happens to be in 25th Dec. It doesn't have to be from Santa or because its Jesus's birthday. I'd have another word with her cos don't want them to be left out. You sound very thoughtful OP and a lovely grandmother 💐

Thanks for your personal thesis but there’s about 2.7 million Muslims in the U.K. alone and if what you’re saying was even remotely true then it would be apparent. It isn’t.

Mumsnet has become cesspit for these covert threads to spread Islamophobia. It’s very very unlikely this is true and just another thread to bash.

Could you ask all children other than muslim daughter to come and hour earlier so that you can do gifts with their children? It will not be unfair in the scheme of things if you are also taking gifts for her children for Eid earlier in the year.

I think it is unfair of your daughter to insist upon no gifts when it is your Christmas - and even though her children are muslim, they could receive them in acknowledgement of YOUR faith, in your home. And I say that as a person raised in a muslim extended family with a Christian mum. My muslim dad bloody loved Christmas and it didn’t make him any less muslim for doing so. The Quran/Mohammed acknowledge the existence and importance of Jesus, so I can’t help but feel your DD is being rather rigid.

You sound like a lovely grandmother.

In my own family, we have always opened non-Santa gifts on Christmas Eve, and Santa gifts on Christmas morning. Would you be able to fudge the matter by doing a 'seasonal family gift giving event' on Christmas Eve? Giving gifts isn't central to a Christian Christmas any more than a decorated tree is after all.

Or if the grandchildren will arrive on Christmas morning, could you send the presents to them to open on Christmas Eve or Christmas morning at their own homes and arrive for the day after that's all taken care of?

There's a part of me that wonders about the idea your DD has that she can request you send gifts for Eid, which isn't a part of your belief system, but can put you on the spot at Christmas...

Agree!

Your DD1 is something else, coming to your house on a religious holiday that you observe demanding that her religion be respected. Perhaps she should stay home. Sounds like everyone - especially you - would have a much calmer Christmas then. Terrified is a very loaded word, and you keep using it.

I would treat the grandchildren the same, either do presents for the other children on a different day when DD1’s aren’t there, and give something equivalent for the other children, or do in the day and plain wrap a present for them to open when they choose. I would tell Dd1 I was doing this and explain why, it’s not at all unreasonable of you to do this. If she refuses the present that’s her choice. The treasure hunt also sounds like a great idea.

Religions are very comforting for very many people. They usefully explain to humans why the world is how it is, and how we can live a good life. We like our explanations and exhortations to be good! For example, ancient Greece used the stories about their Gods to explain why we have winters (when nothing grows) and why we have springs (when we should plant)

If we look at countries run according to Islamic law they struggle. Even those with the huge benefits of unearned wealth from oil, are rated very poorly in terms of being a high-trust society with low levels of corruption. At a more micro level, look at Tower Hamlets, the rottenest of rotten boroughs, in the UK. What is going wrong here, and why?

Some people are dealt a lousy hand at birth. It's very unfair and unjust. Being born female (rather than male), gay (not straight), black/Asian (not white), to a poor (not wealthy) family, within an oppressive religion/culture or with a disability, will all make your life more challenging. But at least with religion we can choose when adults to leave, or can argue for change from within. But with Islam, the penalties for apostasy and blasphemy are very severe, often including the death penalty. So people are trapped.

The issues with Islam (relative to other mainstream religions) largely stem from its inflexibility, intolerance and insecurity. It has a particular unwillingness to change as new evidence and knowledge emerges. There is no wiggle room, uncertainty is strictly forbidden. Criticisms, however gentle, will be sternly and promptly punished to discourage any others.

All religious books contain very obvious scientific errors, that we now know are wrong. I was very struck by how often the Quran talks about both the Prophet and this Religion being the last and final. It repeatedly claims that this is the true, unchanging, perfect word of God unfiltered by man's limited understanding. All previous religions were wrong, Islam is the one true and final religion for everyone on Earth.

So the presence of so many scientific errors are much more wounding to the Quran, than the Bible or Torah. And hence the aggression when even small criticisms are made. Similarly, it absurdly claims that all people are born Muslim regardless of their family's religion. So if a Christian child converts to Islam as an adult that is really them reverting to one true faith. It's not remotely tolerant of discussion, dissent or even nuance.

The Quran was written in the 7th century. Not a great time to be female or gay or poor. We are now in the 21st century. So much has been both learnt and widely changed for the better in the last 14 centuries. We should all be allowed to benefit from these changes. But Islam forbids change.

Please explain why such a dogmatic and misogynistic belief system is not a major disadvantage to its (no doubt, many kind, brave, liberal and intelligent) followers?

You are misusing the term ‘rotten borough’ in your anti-Islam rant, @KitWyn .

If you think the OP is a troll you need to report the post, not troll hunt

@mathanxiety The DD is a Muslim convert and relishing it! Often these people take up certain elements of a religion but leave the tenets like tolerance and kindness behind.

Too Presbyterian you mean. Most of Scotland was very anti Catholic.

there are some replies here, probably meant with all good faith, to basically say no need to mention why this is a special day in the Christian calendar, It almost felt like Christianity is unimportant , compared to other religions.
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Good point. No one would say you should park Islam when you celebrate Eid or Judaism when you celebrate Hanukkah - and that one is possibly a better analogy as plenty of Jews are secular Jews who still celebrate Jewish festivals.