All our children are different religions, Christmas is feeling overwhelming

[Ellipsie]

DH and I have 4 children, all now adults, all married. We are CofE Christians, our children were raised CofE Christians and Christmas for us has always been religion first.

Our eldest DD married a lovely Muslim and converted to Islam. Her 2 children are being raised Muslim.
Our youngest DD married her best friend from secondary school, he is Jewish, he leans liberal and isn’t as devout as DD1s family, but they celebrate Jewish holidays, go to synagogue for Yom Kipur/Rosh Hashanah etc. and always without fail have Shabbat dinner with his family. Their daughter is now 3 so more aware than in previous years.
Both of our DS are loosely Christian, church on Easter and Christmas only but do view Christmas as being religion first.

For our daughters they both have different approaches to Christmas.
My eldest daughter doesn’t want any presents for her children for Christmas, she has asked we celebrate them at Eid instead, which is of course understandable and absolutely fine. They will be joining us for dinner on Christmas Day though.
Our youngest daughter has a different approach where by they still celebrate Christmas “culturally”, so they do Father Christmas and have a Christmas tree etc. They also allow us to give their child a gift at Christmas.

Now our grandchildren are no longer babies I am finding it all a bit tricky to navigate. This year we have 7 grandchildren.
Our eldest DDs 2 children are now 4 and 2, our eldest son has a 3 year old and a 1 year old, our younger son has a 2 year old and a newborn and our youngest daughter has a 3 year old.

This is the first year we will be hosting Christmas with children who are aware of what’s going on. I’m terrified that as DD1 doesn’t want us give her children gifts they are going to feel awful as we will be giving the others gifts. I thought we could get around this by having our grandchildren who will get gifts come over earlier and receive them but as DD2 isn’t Christian and doesn’t do church that won’t be possible.

At the same time I’m also terrified about getting the language right, Christmas has always been religious for us, but now I’m thinking do I need to present everything as “well granny and grandad believe this, but others don’t”?

It’s got me very stressed out and I don’t want to upset or offend any of my children.

AIBU to struggle with this? Does anyone have any advice or ideas on how I can make this work?

I think the only way you can manage it is for DD1 to come later, after present giving, as her children will be upset to get nothing. I think she's being very unreasonable to allow her kids to engage in only some of the cultural parts - the family get together, without exchanging gifts too.

She's insisted on coming, so may well be in the mood for a row, and might claim that you're not respecting her beliefs, favouring her siblings etc just by having a regular Christmas.

I think she should comes later than your other children, if she comes at all. Would she be open to considering that by going to yours for Christmas lunch, she is observing a Christmas tradition, so if she's so anti-Christmas, she shouldn't attend?

If she does still come, you might want to agree in advance with your husband what you'll do if she tries to get into a row about religion or politics with her sister - if she says something anti-semetic will you ask her to leave? Personally, I think you should if it came to it - it sounds like she could be very keen on making a point.

It's your Christmas celebration. All children should be treated the same. If DD1 has a problem, she should not come.

Thinking you have the right to dictate someone else's religious celebration is so beyond rude and self centered. Would DD1 appreciate it if you took over her Eid party and demanded she remove all the religious elements? Think about how that would go...

This! Have the Christmas you usually have!

if your muslim daughter doesn’t want the focus on Christmas in terms of gifts, then make them token Holiday Gifts just so they have something to open.

the fact of the matter is that she has chosen a path that’s different to yours, but if Eid fell at Christmas would she expect you to ditch your traditions entirely?

… actually IME… best not to answer that.

get on the WhatsApp and inform them that it’s Christmas in your house, that there will be token gifts for all the kids because it’s your traditional, there will be church for those who wish to attend, not for those who don’t.

incidentally, being Muslim doesn’t mean you can’t set foot in a church, it just means you don’t have to pray/participate, but she could attend if she wanted to.

at the end of the day… there is only one god and he loves us all.

what about food? Where will you sit on the pork/alcohol question?

im not talking about your Jewish daughter, as it seems she is happy to go with the flow, and wants a more secular approach

She who hosts gets to choose how the celebration goes in her own home, if your DD was hosting, then she can choose to host in her way. I dare say you’d be happy to go along too, because you’re a kind and considerate person. This is ultimately your home, your Christmas and you’re the one going to the trouble of providing it all

I was just wondering about the catering. What do you roast your potatoes, parsnips in.

OH it's too damn exhausting to host a zealot convert 🙈. The majority of the family are easier and less obdurate.

@Ellipsieyou are so kind and are trying so hard to keep all of your children happy. Does DD1 give Christmas presents to you/her siblings/nieces and nephews? Or does she give them presents at Eid? I assume her siblings also can’t give presents to her children.
I do think maybe she should visit either on Boxing Day, or after dinner on Christmas Day, for the afternoon and evening. This would give you all the chance to celebrate Christmas and exchange gifts first, and possibly reduce the time she has to argue with her sister. But you would all have the chance to see her on Christmas Day which I’m sure is important to you.
she does need to realise that just as she would welcome you to celebrate Eid with her, she should also be willing to celebrate Christmas with you.

Just call it a family day/dinner. You’ll have church in the morning to meet your religious needs and then a lovely day with your family.

Maybe give the other grandchildren their presents to take home and open if you’re worried about upsetting the others?

You sound like such a lovely, kind mum and grandma btw 🙂

I'd need a spreadsheet 😂

People cannot put their beliefs or lack of to one side though. My sis refused to be a Godmother to my DD. We aren’t religious and saw it as more of a special relationship role. She refused. No one seems to be able to say they will park their views. Fortunately replacements have been just as we wished and good relationships all round.

DD1 sounds terribly insecure, like she's doubling down on her wishes regardless of whether they make sense as she needs to feel like everyone respected her way of wanting things done. I'd say you should do things in terms of her kids the way she wants and let her come to any conclusions about what did/didn't work without any criticism from others. From what you've said of her, I can imagine she would be more likely to consider doing it differently next year if it's her idea and not a response to someone else saying her kids felt left out (for instance).

In terms of her children, I would have a couple of presents put aside for them just in case. If there's a big upset you take her aside and say that you do have some spare gifts getting ready for birthdays/next year, if she thinks it would help you could wrap them quickly and give them. Don't make her think it was pre-planned though.

The treasure hunt/games idea was fab.

Also, new toys to live at yours (a play kitchen?) to be used by all grankdkids but not a gift per se would givw them something fun to play with while others open gifts.

Beyond all that, if she makes it difficult she makes it difficult. There's only so much tiptoeing around tricky characters that can be done before you have to just let them do what they're going to do.

Most families have that one member who everyone else has to tiptoe around. It's exhausting. And the selfish & controlling one continues to behave badly as it gets them what they want which is other people's unwilling compliance and attention.

As I get older I become much more 'life is too short' and just do what I think is right, without compromising. I'd be furious and extraordinarily disappointed at my daughter not attending her brothers' church weddings. That is shockingly intolerant of her. Yet you're expected to de-christmas your traditional annual family lunch and upset two of your grandchildren by not giving them gifts?

I'd tell her to come round on Boxing Day instead. Explaining it will be much too upsetting for her children not to have gifts with all the other GCs. And Christmas Day is a day of hymns, songs and santa. Better for her and her family to come round after all of the main Christmas stuff is done.

But it's not my daughter. So I do understand completely why you are trying so very hard to keep everyone happy.

I find it bizarre that it's your Muslim DD who is causing the problems. I taught in a majority Muslim school for a couple of decades, and we didn't have a single Muslim parent ask for their child not to be part of our Christmas celebrations. The families sent us Christmas cards and gifts, and we sent them Eid cards and enjoyed the food they sent in the day after the celebrations!

I'm only a third of the way through the thread, but I keep seeing posters saying that the 4 year old's upset "is up to her parents to manage". But that's not helpful.
In the child's eyes, it's Grandma who's left her out and given all her cousins a present, but not her. It's Grandma's relationship with the four year old that is likely to be damaged.

I think one child will be very upset if they don't get gifts and their cousins do, I think you should bring this up with you daughter and see if she could open some gifts but not with christmas wrapping etc.?

Also totally shocked she wouldn't go to her brothers wedding? This seems a bit unnecessary.

@Ellipsie

I do believe you have to go along with DD1's parenting decisions, if she says no gifts then no gifts. Don't try to find 'workarounds' to allow you to sidestep her parenting. You do your usual celebration traditions and give gifts to the other DGC. And I don't believe in hiding those traditions from DD1's DC by gift opening earlier with your other DGC. What were you going to do, say "Now, don't tell your cousins that you got presents"? Because that's not going to work. It's 'keeping secrets' and not fair to put on them.

And if DD1 says for you not to give or open gifts in front of her DC, that's as unreasonable of her as it would be for you to insist on giving gifts to her children. For questions or upset from DD1's DC you can say "We buy you your gifts on Eid, that's your family's 'special gift day'". If that doesn't satisfy them, then say "I think you need to ask your questions to Mummy and Daddy". Don't get into it any more than that.

Mixing traditions/religions is never easy. It's best to just do your 'usual', respecting parental wishes, when in your own home. And it's up to them to prepare their children.

Can you do presents another day? Or give them in advance? Then there is less of an issue?

So many posts lately about ‘Muslim relatives’ being intolerant or too extreme. Must be the season.

Do you often discuss the religious background to Christmas with your family? Or your grandkids?
Just provide dinner and gift as permitted. It will be fine.

I wish people would stop telling the OP that she’s unreasonable for saying grace at her own table, in her own home or that playing hymns/christian carols is ‘extraordinary’.

If you chose to visit someone’s home you should be prepared to be respectful of their culture. Your DD is imposing herself on a celebration that she is completely intolerant of, this is the problem.

This thread is a reminder that the world would be a better place if we were all more understanding and tolerable of other peoples beliefs.

It may be islamophobia of course. But there does seem to be a demand for much greater intolerance of other religions, together with controlling misogyny, written throughout the Quran. Those who convert (supposedly revert?) to Islam seem keenest to prove they're the most devout.

I work with several liberal Muslims, and they struggle with balancing their successful western lives and the very specific demands of their religion. One ex-Muslim friend has had no further contact with her parents and siblings in a decade, as it would not be safe for her.

Sikhs, Hindus and Buddhists seem to find it a little easier to muddle along with everyone else.

IKR

Can you separate the gift giving from the Christmas element given that the gift giving isn’t related to the religious aspect of Christmas? That way, it’s just an excuse to be generous to your grandchildren? I come from an inter-religiois family and we have a similar set up. My aunt and her family go to midnight mass & church, sometimes we even host Christmas even though we are muslim and we all just celebrate the day as a family whilst respecting and explaining our different beliefs to the kids when it arises. We have a mixture of Christian’s, atheists, Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims in my family. A prayer before dinner won’t be uncommon for the muslim kids as they have a specific prayer before eating and another after dinner and a different one when eating as a guest at somebody’s home. It’s likely to be very similar when translated so won’t feel strange to them and you should do this if you want to. They will likely ignore any reference to the son of god and say aameen instead of Amen. You are very thoughtful but please try not to feel overwhelmed by it. Your family sound lovely x

I would simply not do any gifts for anyone other than your two DS's families who sort of celebrate Christmas.

Then I'd just go straight down the line and buy them all exactly the same thing, like Family Zoo membership for the year and they can have at Eid, Hannukah and Christmas respectively? Somewhere they can go a lot and enjoy but that is ludicrous to repeatedly go and visit at £100 a time.

You could also do something nice like adopt an animal on behalf of all the children? Find something new every year and make it a tradition. DD1 could hardly object unless she is being really bloody minded.

Then just spoil the grandkids on their birthdays.

Fellow muslim here with muslim parents, i think ur DD1 is making it harder than it needs to be, there is extra flexibility in islam for convert muslims so they do not alienate themselves from non muslims family members , or even upset family members etc.
Also poeple give my kids presents and vice versa its just abit of joy, they visit grottos and we go xmas markets as do alot of the muslims i know.
U sound lovely like youve put so much thought and effort into accommodating everyone, they need to do the same back. X

I have friends of all religions and I don't know anyone who would refuse gifts and food for their children, unless for reasons of wastefulness.

The problem that people seem to be unable to comprehend with this is that although Christmas functions for many as a secular holiday, for Christians it is one of the largest religious festivals of the year, second only behind Easter.

It's fairly natural that on a religious festival, people would want to celebrate in the traditional way of their faith. I don't see people going around telling members of other religions they should just not bother with their major religious festivals as they are unimportant.

If the OPs daughter can't in good conscience be there at Christmas, then she should not try and destroy their religious observance, she should just stay home and get together with them another day. After all, the day has no significance for her, unlike her parents.