To think a lot of MNetters do not understand what it’s like to parent a child who is not quelled by your anger

[andanotheryear]

or quashed by a stern voice
or who cares if you get angry / furious / apoplectic
or who gives a damn about consequences because they live for the moment

aibu

(I’m not)

Agreed. It doesn't. I'm trying to remember how I got my defiant child to stay in a car seat and it was probably a two pronged brute force and distraction approach. She probably screeched like a velociraptor but there are times when, having dedicated everything to that relationship, you just have to be confident that you know best and a bit of pissed off screeching is better than the alternative.

We were very, very strict with ours when they were little, and both were challenging in their own way (DD1 is neurodiverse). Refuse to get dressed? Fine, you can go to school in your pyjamas and slippers. We did take clothes to school and she got changed in the car, but understanding that we would carry out our threat meant that she didn’t do it again. If we were out, and they played up in a restaurant, they were given one warning and were then taken home. I did shout a lot, but it was often the only thing that worked - please tidy your bedroom (no response), but yelling, please tidy your room now, meant that they did it, because they knew there were consequences for not doing it.

I never, ever, smacked them or used any form of physical violence, but made sure they knew that actions had consequences. I get that it wouldn’t work for all families, but gentle parenting wouldn’t have worked for us.

We did live in other European countries during their childhood, and I did find that toleration for badly behaved children was low. And expectations much higher - no nursery would take children if they weren’t toilet trained by 18 months, so we had to crack on and do it. Children at restaurants were expected to sit at the table and eat their food, not run around screaming.

I'm just hoping that I'm coming out of the other side with my DS who is 14yrs and has been so incredibly challenging for the last year. I'm pretty sure that some of the advice that gets posted on Mumsnet would not of worked on him and would of inflamed the situation 100%. When he was suspended from school for fighting as a 6'2 teeenager who was still full of anger from coming out of the fight I chose to sit down and listen to him, in the end we made a productive plan for his suspension where he was very kept very busy and productive by myself and my parents. In this situation the classic shouting at him and removing his phone would of completely inflamed the situation, I cannot imagine him being sat in his room getting more angry and potentially a flight risk.

I'm inclined to agree with this, at least for some children. My eldest is autistic and he needs a clear and unambiguous signal when his behaviour is having a negative effect on others. Facial expressions and lengthy explanations don't tend to work but a change in tone of voice does.

Parenting in this country is much harder than it used to be. In the days when it was customary to keep children in line with strong authority and even violence, kids were just more compliant. We also did less and expected less. Skilful parenting is just so much more work and takes so much more self-regulation. Added to that, we are all less experienced with children than people used to be.

That is literally your thread title and op question! You are saying it doesn't work for your child so you must have tried it?

I agree that often kids behave differently at home compared to our and about, but by your post you are describing your child as never caring about any consequences etc. Do you really think it's not worth considering how their teachers manage them?

The best teachers I've known manage to control 25+ kids without raising their voices.

Yes I'm sure you're right. We had some bumpy times with ours but they were never seriously unmanageable for any significant length of time. I don't know how parents deal with children like that. Must be so tough. You must end up hoping to get them adopted.

I think all children are innately different. Some are naturally just more compliant and calm in temperament than others.

I'm generally pro firm boundaries, consequences and rewards, and validating feelings/emotions. I do sometimes think kids need shouting at though, and truly believe that in an otherwise loving and stable home, a couple of memorable bollockings won't do them any harm. Let's be real, almost everyone remembers a time their parents went apocalyptic at them. I know I do, and I know I never did the same thing again 😂 Most of the time as adults it is our duty to calmly regulate our emotions and role model to our children, but I also think sometimes a natural consequence of bad behaviour is someone crying or getting angry! Children need to see parents getting upset sometimes. It's a learning opportunity and creates moments to practice repair.

Ha!! And if the child doesn't want to go to nursery/shopping/grandma's/sibling's sports class - they take their seat belt off and refuse to walk (already absurd - it's a 20 mile journey, hence being in the car and the child is probably uncarryable for more than about 100m realistically) and you're fucked/late/starving/depriving their sibling of whatever it is they wanted.

I think part of the problem is that we know that intrinsic motivation is vital, but schools rely so much on external motivation for kids that it interferes with the idea of natural consequences altogether. Kids have to follow rules they aren't allowed to question, and are given arbitrary punishments when they cannot or will not comply.

I thought the 'ignore the bad, praise the good' was simple and non controversial enough until I praised my son for doing something and he just said 'I didn't do it so that you'd say I was good' and took it all apart. He is a lovely boy and actually a LOT easier since he reached the age of reason and logic (thankfully early) but still has absolutely no interest in doing anything 'just because' unless he can see the value of it (fortunately 'it would make my life easier' is considered a good enough reason to him - I'd be fucked it is wasn't! 😱).

I often think a lot of these ‘calmly explain’ techniques must only have one child.

You're not unique. I found "Explosive Child" very useful when nothing else worked, but it was the "baskets" more than anything else. Making a solid strategic decision: What was I willing to go through a meltdown over (Basket A), what was I going to let go (Basket C), and what could I realistically negotiate over (Basket B)

There are only certain things that you can negotiate over. Basket B is about learning to negotiate so you often can't start with the really important difficult stuff. Car seat is physical safety, which is not really negotiable so it's more Basket A than B. You might have to start with things that are easier to negotiate!

And you might not be able to discuss the car seat "on the spot" (like, in the car!) at all because they're already feeling defensive and defiant. Plus talking about a potential danger might not work, it might make some children dig in worse. Concrete effects are better. If a child doesnt stay in the car seat (and they can't tell you a reason like physical discomfort) then we have to pull over and the car goes nowhere for as long as it takes because safety. Or maybe you have to get a more fancy seat that they just can't undo.

I used a mix of "Explosive Child" and "Incredible Years" which is much more conventional (plus a sprinkling of "Parent-Child Game") Oldies but goodies! Plus some ASC-specific stuff. There was no fixed recipe.

I wouldn't be surprised! I really had to train myself to use a very calm reassuring "informative" voice and not a stern voice at all because if I did my DC reacted as if I was on the attack. So I dunno what parents do if you have one who responds well to a stern voice and one who just does the exact opposite!

I agree. I have a child with PDA traits, autistic and ADHD. They laugh at me. Belittle and mininise. The natural innate desire to connect through working with you collaboratively is not there.

Over time it is becoming almost impossible for me to parent in any meaningful way.

No one understands at all , unless they also have ND children who present in this way. Posts about ND seeming kids responded to by parents without ND kids often miss the mark. You can't understand it unless you live it.

Most of parenting advice on MN comes from people who either a) don't know about many different children, they've only parented their own, b) from people who assumed what they did was successful (when it was actually harmful in a different way).

I have one energetic little boy, but he's very compliant and orderly so long as you give him a good but of fresh air (like a dog). Yesterday he got the vacuum out after baking without my asking and did the hallway too, before putting it back on charge.

I think I'm a good parent because I provide the fresh air and the love and the fun, but the attitude and behaviour all comes from him.

This was me as a child (audhd/PDA). I was fully wild as a teenager/young adult but calmed down around 30. I then trained as a solicitor, married, and then became a SAHM.

Adhd kids and they really could not have given a toss when wee (or sometomes as teens) and had the self preservation of lemmings.
Firm, consistent boundries and consequnces. Its thankless but thats parenting

😂 We might all have moments but we don't "end up" anywhere. We carry on, some things work some don't, some days are better than others, but things change and children do grow and develop and learn. For us childhood might have been a riot but adolescence was a breeze!

One wise thing that DC's teacher said, was that DC did well when his development and his environment were roughly matched. Not when they were out of step.

DD2 is now 14 - she gives not a damn about consequences & never has done.
Completely different to parent her than DD1 - I am usually still flummoxed.

Weak, permissive parenting produces weak young adults who lack resilience. I think this has been proven in this country by the sheer number of youngsters with various diagnoses, refusing to leave home, on benefits and addicted to their phones.

Yeah I'd have a breakdown.

My DC would fold the moment I gave them the 'look'. They're very occasionally pushing boundaries now and the look/stern voice isn't working and I've got nothing.....

I know I've got a good kid but in those moments of defiance I realise I'm completely powerless.

Ds could be very hard to tell off seemed not to care - even school admited that in the end.

Time outs, naughty steps rewards charts were all disasters with him.

However tone did eventually work - I think that was a mix of trust building sometimes explaining why- him suffering natural consquences ie getting hurt not listening or having one I found that did work for him - and getting tone right. I've heard many parents say they use direct lanagage and firm tone and they don't - they over explain they have a whiny easily tuned out voice.

Sometimes looks would work -sometimes nothing would - sometimes there was an underlying reasons for the behavior - more support need

It's often finding out what works for that child - all three of mine are different.

Firm, consistent boundries and consequnces did eventually work - took longer and was harder work and there were many missteps.

Bit concerned that you talk about “quelling with anger”

because if that’s your nature it’s what you teach your child so I am not at all surprised that you have discipline troubles

Parental anger and rage occurring once or twice in a childhood is fine - but thinking it’s how you discipline normally is wrong

Yep. I had one who, sent to his room to 'calm down' would climb out of the window. Grounding was pointless, he'd just walk out. Would argue black was white and didn't care when I was on my knees with tiredness and frustration. Did what he wanted (although, in his favour, he was never criminal) and genuinely did not give a tuppenny fuck what I said or thought.

He's in his late thirties now, married and perfectly responsible and ordinary. Employed, has a home - I just think he didn't want to be told what to do. But it was absolute hell when he was young.

Personally I found that getting eye contact was essential. It helped with my 2 DC and also with the younger children I teach English as a foreign language to as well. Kids I see once a week, getting down to their level as well.