To think a lot of MNetters do not understand what it’s like to parent a child who is not quelled by your anger

[andanotheryear]

or quashed by a stern voice
or who cares if you get angry / furious / apoplectic
or who gives a damn about consequences because they live for the moment

aibu

(I’m not)

@lifeturnsonadime im not looking for specific advice on that issue. I’m not an idiot and have tried things that (sorry to be blunt here but really) anyone with half a brain would try! But i did do a search and a lot of the advice was to get really angry … thought ‘ha.’

Why on earth are you trying to quell a child with anger or quash them with a stern voice?!

I’m not. RTFT.

Ok OP, you do seem really angry though your child will be sensing that.

I'll leave you to it.

Although I would suggest not posting in AIBU on a parenting site about a challenging child if you don't advise from parents who have actually had extremely challenging children and got through to the other side of it!!!

It’s a pain, but even recognising that wanting the car seat done up is your desire not his is useful.

There’s nothing in it for him, having the seat done up. He isn’t motivated by being safe or not dying. When you realise that it’s easier to find something that does motivate him (not earning stickers, bribery etc- at least not for us).

Having stood at the side of the road for ages with a DC while they refused to get back in the car, I feel your pain. On that occasion the thing that got her back in was being able to ring her social worker when she got home, to dob me in. By then she no longer wanted to, but in the moment the opportunity to complain about my awfulness to someone was irresistible.

You could try a game/challenge. “If you can keep your car seat done up nicely all the way to school, I’ll hop all the way to your classroom!”. And when you initially put him in it, make a deal out of checking it’s on right, comfortable, not pinching, ‘tight enough to keep you safe, but still comfortable’ etc.

Jokes like that worked well with mine. “Oh my! Have I done it right? You’ve gone a bit quiet! Can you still breathe?! Phew😅! Thank goodness!”.

Or a job like, I need to find a cake shop so we can stop on the way home to buy us each a little cake. While I concentrate on driving the car, can you check out the windows and tell me if you see a cake shop?

Distract, delay and engage. Tiring, but actually quite good fun.

I think you are assuming we all use anger and loud voices to control our children, which is not the case. It’s definitely not something that works the older they get and it’s clearly not working for your children. sounds like you need to find super nanny ways of setting boundaries, and kindly but firmly following through on punishment but more importantly setting up reward systems.

But … saying something firmly or sternly is a fairly normal way of getting your child to listen to you. It works for one of mine and is hardly child abuse. Just … does not work for t’other.

I’m not angry @lifeturnsonadime , I am lying in bed chilled out. I ‘said’ my post to you in an amused tone rather than angry! Probably because it reminds me of my very earnest beliefs at one time. The choices thing always makes me laugh as even my compliant child took about two minutes to work out that all she needed to do was to say no to any choice I gave her and that was that. Which is a possibility the ‘just give them choices’ parents never seem to countenance!

Sorry, I missed that you don’t want advice. I was still typing up my post when lots of things were said 🤣.

I do send commiserations! It’s blooming hard! I can remember several occasions where I’m ashamed of my behaviour. But it was extremely hard so I do sympathise.

Don’t worry @PrizedPickledPopcorn . I’ve got a straitjacket car seat that is a lot harder to get out of (not impossible though) and he does seem comfier so that’s good. BUT what prompted this thread was I was searching how to put it in and came across threads by parents who had kids climbing out and a lot of the advice is to get angry and shout, even though on this thread MN of course would never, who on earth even does that 😂

if I get angry with ds he gets angry. If I get annoyed with dd, she cries. Different children.

Just to add to this, though, the choice-giving and so on mustn't be too full on or too difficult for the PDA child to respond to. They may feel overwhelmed by the laser of your attention, or the cognitive tasks of assessing and choosing.

The 'hahaha can i have a spiderman cake' could easily be a panicky response to a situation that is cognitively and emotionally overwhelming. Taking anger out of the situation is one good way to lessen the child's over arousal; but it is important to reduce other stimuli too. A lecture about car safety, and presenting the child with a range of considerations and choices that are simply too much for him to take on board, is bound to be agitating.

I don't know what the right thing to do would necessarily be - that would depend on the details. But I'm picturing something like calmly taking the child out of the car and saying "Ok my love, things are getting too much. We'll go out later." Then, when they are calmer, you could build their sense of control by presenting some maneagable choices to them.

A parent showing appropriate emotional reactions to a child's unwanted behaviour is perfectly normal. When they continue to do something they have been asked not to do a stern voice demonstrates your disapproval and shows your feelings of annoyance or anger at the behaviour. It's not teaching them to be fearful of you, it's demonstrating to them that their actions affect others emotions. If you only ever speak to children in a calm loving voice they think you are unaffected by the bad behaviour. They push the boundaries more because they are looking for an emotional response from you which you need to give. People get cross, annoyed, angry, disappointed, upset- it's ok to react to naughty behaviour!

I don’t think many parents know it didn’t work, given that what replaced it has resulted in a swathe of young people with poor mental health.

To be honest, parents of typical kids never really question the techniques they use, as in they don’t actually notice what they are doing or what underlies it.

Using a sharp voice, or disappointment to control your child is a fairly normal technique. But it’s based on shame. Shame that you’ve disappointed your parent, upset them, made they cross. And some DC just don’t have that button to press! Either they go nuclear because shame is a massive trigger, or they just aren’t connected in such a way as to find other people’s emotions a thing that impacts them. It simply doesn’t occur to them that mummy being upset/cross with me is a bad thing or a thing to avoid, or a thing that’s in any way related to my behaviour.

Learning that your behaviour makes people cross is a good life lesson- it shows it is wrong because it gets a negative reaction.

Oh God yes, 1000%. Ds was and remains the most straightforward child to parent in the world. I will be a useless grandmother, I haven’t a clue. Though tbh I don’t really remember how I did it or how it was, and I always found it quite supportive when my mum claimed not to be able to remember what she did. So perhaps that will be not too annoying.

I had one child who was absolutely easy to parent and one who was incredibly hard (he was eventually diagnosed with autism, and I think could also have been diagnosed as PDA).
Unfortunately, my difficult child came first. I thought that the absolute failure of all commonsense parenting was down to me being rubbish and doing it wrong. I just didn't know what it was like for things to be straightforward.

Then for years with my second child I just thought I was doing a bit better because I was more experienced. But that wasn't it at all. They were just utterly different. I can't remember at all what I did when DS2 was 'naughty'. I just can't remember there ever being a problem. Whereas with DS1 I was endlessly attempting the 'parenting techniques' that get thrown about.

It was only as he got older and his problems became more pronounced that I started to be able to understand how fundamentally different the tasks of parenting were for him, and of course by that time we had developed family dynamics and habits that made solutions harder.

Yes this is definitely the case. My favourite is when they safely advocate "consistency" and then their example is how their child did something they didn't like so they told them, firmly, "no". And then they did it again so they removed them. And the child never did it again.

That doesn't sound especially consistent, it sounds like doing something twice. Also so patronising to assume I've never tried the novel idea of...saying no!

Anyway we can all only parent the children we have, I have two very different ones - it is difficult to understand the complexities of parenting another child. I am complimented on one child, and asked for parenting advice. And given sympathy and helpful hints for the other!!

Ok, climbing out of car seat scenario:
You explain to the child the potential for an accident and getting hurt.
You tell them you will never risk that. You will stop driving if they move out of the car.
You drive. They climb out of it. You stop. Wait for the child to accept being strapped to the car seat again or you will not take him to whatever place.
It works better if the trip is to the park or play centre or whatever place he likes going to.
Obviously, highly inconvenient when the trip is to a place you need to be, like childcare. But then, natural consequence if the child does not accept: they walk there, they have to get up earlier, they do not get picked up if they get tired. Just reminded that this would be so much easier if you just sat nicely on the car seat, wouldn't it?
You have the Christmas break coming up. You can use this time.
It is a lot of effort, but if you get this through, other things should be easier. If you really have a child who really does not care about consequences. Your view of consequences was a bit tad dramatic on your post.

I suppose you have already checked that the car seat is comfortable and looks appealing enough. And that he does not get sick looking out of the window?

If you child does not really care about any consequence or logic, then I would have them assessed.

It's not only about response to anger or consequences.

I think a lot MNetters do not understand that their child is an individual person, and not a model from which every other child on the planet is based... So whatever parenting technique works with one might not work with another, and it's not always that parents are "not parenting".

We used to do something similar

“we need to go out and to do that you need shoes on how are we going to achieve that?” Then it becomes a problem they “think” they need to work out. It also stops them thinking about being defiant for a bit.

I have 3 DCs, DC1 will generally do as asked but has dreadful listening skills. I don't have to get angry, raise my voice or give consequences.
DC2 has autism and was very difficult as a baby and toddler. They screamed for the first 2 years of their life. Probably the calmest now though and has learnt some great strategies.
DC3 is harder than 20 of DC1 and 2 combined! Listens, but could not care less about what I ask. Won't do anything they don't want to do, turns most things around on me by saying I obviously don't love them and they hate our family. I am also stuck between not knowing whether to be even stricter or more gentle. I've swayed in both directions over the years, but nothing has ever helped. A lot of people have told me that this DC will probably be the most successful in life, because they just do not back down!

I think sometimes people forget we are human beings parenting other human beings. No point pretending to be anything other than that. In my experience the relationship you have with your kids is what gets you through long term because if they value that connection they will strive to maintain it too. That does not mean they are instantly obedient - who is or wants to be? - but it does mean they will generally accept that you are acting in their best interests and can be trusted to make good decisions on their behalf. If you put your relationship with them uppermost and are honest about what needs to happen and why you can normally trust them to do what you want and if they don't, they can't, and you need to change tack. Rules and orders for the sake of it are a different though obviously.

Why would they care about the car stopping or waking up earlier? Teens maybe, but younger children just wake up when they're told, and have little awareness of time anyway.

The only natural consequence here is the parents getting more and more frustrated, and angry, because THEY know they're late and they want to get to their destination without having to stop every 5 sec.

Kid will just continue to do their thing...

Totally agree with this
our children didn’t always like our decisions but they did/still do trust them

It also helped ours, I think, to say sorry if you got things wrong and explanations if required - admit you are human as well

we also drilled it into them that to us they are the centre of the universe but out there they are a bang average human amongst others

but this doesn’t help with getting a defiant child to stay in a car seat

Never been tested. Dh and I were both well behaved and compliant as children I genuinely didn’t want to piss off my parents. Our two are both like us so we look agog at the tantrums drama and defiance of other families!