Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY!

[Iamwhoiamwhoareyou]

Following April's supreme court ruling, the Girl Guides have FINALLY made a statement and will remain GIRLS ONLY - Finally closing the door on admitting trans members or allowing BOYS to invade female only spaces/camp (which, would be done without informing parents that their daughter would be sharing a room with a biological male!) - I have a previous post in feminism chat for anyone wanting to read the previous thread on this

EMAIL RECEIVED HOT OFF THE PRESS 5 MIN AGO -

As the parent of a young member in Girlguiding, following April’s Supreme Court decision relating to sex and gender, we wanted to give you an update. Many organisations across the country have been facing complex decisions about what it means for girls and women and for the wider communities affected, including us.

Girlguiding’s governing charity documents set out that the membership and people who benefit from our organisation are girls and women. In April, the Supreme Court ruled that girls and women are defined in the Equality Act 2010 by their biological sex at birth.
Following detailed considerations, expert legal advice and input from senior members, young members and our Council, Girlguiding’s Board of Trustees has made the difficult decision that Girlguiding must change Girlguiding must change, following the Supreme Court’s ruling.

From today, 2 December, it is with a heavy heart that we are announcing trans girls and young women will no longer be able to join Girlguiding. This is a decision we would have preferred not to make, and we know that this may be upsetting for members of our community.

There will be no immediate changes for current young members but more information will be shared next week.

Most adult roles, including unit helpers, district helpers and administrative support, are already open to all, so we are confident that no volunteers will have to leave the organisation.

Girlguiding believes strongly in our value of inclusion, and we will continue to support young people and adults in marginalised groups. Over the next few months, we'll explore opportunities to champion this value and actively support young people who need us.

You can find our full statement and updated policy on our website.

We are proud to be the UK’s largest youth organisation dedicated to girls and is focused on creating an equal world for girls and young women. For over 100 years, we have been a welcoming space for all girls to have new experiences, support their communities, build friendships and grow their confidence.

While Girlguiding may feel a little different going forward, these core aims and principles will always be the same. We remain committed to treating everyone with dignity and respect, particularly those from marginalised groups that have felt the biggest impact of this decision.

If you have any immediate questions, we have our special support team in place, to give volunteers, parents and carers the best support we can. We are asking Girlguiding HQ, trading and country/region staff to refer any volunteer or parent who has questions about this announcement. Details below.

Contact [email protected] or 020 7532 3970
All calls/emails will be confidential, and the service will be open 24hrs, 7 days a week.
Find out more, including how this team will handle personal data.

Denise Wilson (Chair of Trustees), Felicity Oswald (CEO) and Tracy Foster (Chief Guide)

(Gotta say, tho, I just saw bullhonky and that was worth hanging around another minute for! Outstanding).

Yes, indeed!

How do you know that being trans is not also a scientific reality? I'm not sure there's enough scientific evidence to say either way at the moment - describing it as a "philosophical belief" seems intent on undermining the trans experience, which is not a choice. And absolutely, sex matters in many situations. But mainly after puberty, once you've left Brownies.

No such org in Uk. Scouts Uk has been mixed sex for decades. So all girls irrespective of their ‘identity’ can apply to join.

I'm assuming that you're not from the UK. The Scouts in the UK are a mixed sex organisation.

Sorry also if I may ask a further question, how did your child assert herself as female before she could speak?

A female only group is not moving away from children being able to access any sport or specific activity they want though. It is simply providing a programme for female children to have activities (not unique activities either) provided in a single sex group. it isn’t a ‘hobby’ it is a programme that was aimed at empowering female people to achieve despite the impacts of negative sex discrimination. And in that way, it is still needed.

It is quite different to encouraging male children to do ballet and female children to play football. Incidentally, female children have access to female football teams too because having those teams is important for those female players.

As your son gets older though, if the hobbies are sport they will sex-segregate anyway. Of course either sex can do ballet, but male ballet dancers will have some sex-specific training. Sport segregates for safety and fairness, in the same way that older children aren’t able to compete against beginners.

My son has 3 sisters, he thrives in his all-boy sporting teams. The same sports have all-girl options as well, the sports are the same but the categories are separated after male puberty. Some children enjoy single sex spaces for some activities, your son may not but it’s ok to have the choice.

For Trans to be a reality- you really need to give a definition of what trans actually means.

There used to be two Trans. The first Trans sexuals who had severe and persistent gender dysphoria as an adult to the point of social exclusion. The second being Transvestites who had a fetish i.e. a sexual release from dressing in the percieved clothing and adopting the percieved mannerisms of the opposite sex.

These are two very different sets of behaviours and problems.

What is the current definition now?

So would you allow other boys (those without a trans identity) to join Brownies?

I think it would be cruel to allow your child to join Brownies because “you can be a girl but only until puberty”. A child is either a girl or a boy, they cannot be a girl for some purposes and not for others. Males no matter what they feel about themselves are not girls.

You go, girl!

I mean...yeah. I probably would allow boys into Brownies if they wanted to join, just as beavers allows girls. They would have to abide by the rules as the girls do. For most activities, I think it'd be okay.

No. Girls would be disadvantaged. They need the option of single-sex spaces. Read the below, and about urban planning seeking to accommodate sex difference, and how single-sex educational environments - extending to clubs like this, I'm sure - can influence girls' readiness to study science or play sport. These things really are bloody complex. Read read read!

https://thegirlsplayproject.com/

Oh Lord. So true.

At high school (Fife) we had a boy's playground and a girls' playground. The boys took over both for football.

We tried bringing in our own ball so that a group of us girls could play catch of some kind. Not a hope. The boys wouldn't let us have our own space in our own playground.

We complained to the teachers. They didn't want to know.

In the end, we had to sit in the cloakroom with the rest of the girls.

@SolidMam I'm really struggling to understand this part in particular, could you give me an example of what you mean please?

well that would involve a change of the organisations charter to become mixed sex. Just because Beavers is mixed sex doesn’t mean that Brownies should be. If you want a mixed sex group then enrol your child in one.

Great. Do you think there is a biological basis for your experience?

Apologies @SolidMam I didn't realise you had PM'd me.

Can I have your permission to copy & paste your answer to my question into the thread please?

Back now the troll's off under the bridge and things are more interesting, but only briefly 😁. Exactly! I mean, just look at who dominates urban spaces, especially leisure spaces. I want girls to leave Guides and be amazed and angered by it - not to not even notice it because it's the water they swim in and the air they breathe. Mixed sex is great in so many ways, for so many reasons. But we need the option of single sex in some contexts. Huge reading recommendation on how women and girls' oppression isn't even noticed: Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez. You'll never look at the world the same way again. And you'll certainly never underestimate the value of Rainbows and Brownies etc. again.

“How do you know that being trans is not also a scientific reality?”

Because it has been studied for decades and no biological markers have been found that indicate a transgender identity. If you believe there is a biological marker that is common with all people with transgender identities, please link us to the evidence.

(And also alert the health services of the numerous countries who have recently done reviews on treatments for children, because they obviously missed it)

“I'm not sure there's enough scientific evidence to say either way at the moment”

This is wishful thinking on your part. But sure, let’s say at the moment there is no evidence that there is a biological marker. So what? Laws and policies are made for this moment’s information. They are not made on the basis that in the future a discovery is made that a male child can have a female identity.

Even then, to be blunt, so what? There is need for single sex provisions to be single sex. Not based on gender identity.

What exactly happens when a male person declares he is female? What specifically changes? Does he magically lose his penis? His strength? His male privilege in knowing he is male and that female people experience negative sex discrimination due to their female bodies?

“describing it as a "philosophical belief" seems intent on undermining the trans experience, which is not a choice”

It is a belief because there is no biological markers. The trans experience is just that. The trans experience. When a person is male, they are not having a ‘female’ experience at all. It is not logically or materially possible.

If a trans experience requires other people to act as if they believe in that experience when they don’t wish to do this, it is directly negatively impacting other people. Using emotional manipulation to coerce others to act as the person with this identity demands is just that- coercion.

Demanding that people treat you as if you are what you materially are not is actually a choice.

“And absolutely, sex matters in many situations. But mainly after puberty, once you've left Brownies”

No. It matters even at Brownies where female children have the right to have the expectation that they have a female single sex provision. And where they are not being told by adults that they have to believe that a male child is a female child or where they are used as a therapeutic resource for a male person.

Thank you for posting that, Catiette! I remember reading this.

Just to add to Helle's post above - my understanding is that biological markers have been found that could/do(?) help us to understand same-sex attraction to some degree, and that these discoveries are sometimes used to claim the same for trans identities, thereby conflating homosexuality and trans in a way that disappears the latter. Both need attention and research.

Also, the whole "philosophical belief" thing is in part due to the legal status of gender-critical beliefs, post-Forstater. (And if belief in the reality of sex can be deemed philosophical, I reckon anything can - although there's also a whole ethical component as to whether something falls under the protected characteristic of religion/belief).

Damn, I really need to go to bed. This stuff just fascinates me.

ETA Correct me if I'm wrong in the above, someone. Tired now, and first para. a response to very recent reading and not cross-reffed.

GG was set up as a way to encourage girls to achieve despite negative sex discrimination that they face due to them having a female sexed body. Including male children in this programme for female children removes the uniqueness of the programme to give female people experiences that they would not have otherwise if male children were included.

Because those male children are there making it a mixed sex group. Male children who do not face the same obstacles to achieve that female children face. Male children who society has not discriminated against due to them having a female body.

You are right, Catiette.

The philosophical belief part also comes from philosophical theories that make statements such as something is what someone says that something is. In this case, someone saying they are something, even if they materially are not that thing they say they are.

Just because someone says they are not the sex they materially are doesn’t make them not that sex at all. It just means that they, personally, reject the material reality of their body.

The other aspect is that feminists don’t believe that female people’s sex defines what a female person does or is interested in. But it does define where protections are needed and which equitable provisions are made so that all female people achieve equality in outcomes and opportunities.