How to prevent grandparents from smacking our child

[Newparent101]

Sorry for the long post, seeking your wise advice!

My partner's dad (aged 70) uses smacking as a way to "teach", which I'm totally against. My partner, however, thinks I'm being unreasonable and that smacking is an effective way to discipline. I just don't agree.

We have our first baby, who's 4 months old. My nieces are 7 and 3, and the grandfather smacks them to "teach" them when they've done something wrong. My sister in law told him she doesn't want him to smack her kids - the grandfather (her father-in-law) stopped speaking to her for a year. Now they have made up, but he smacks her girls again.

I want to find a way to prevent it from ever happening in the first place, and have already told my partner that if his dad (or he) smacks our child I'll immediately take our child away and she won't be seeing her grandfather again.

But of course I want to prevent this ever happening in the first place. I suspect my father-in-law won't listen to me if I state this boundary (given he ignored my sister-in-law for a year and now smacks her girls again). My partner refuses to "lay down the law" with his dad. What's more complicated is his parents don't speak English (they're german) and my german isn't very good.

Anyone have any advice on how to make sure this doesn't happen well ahead of time? Would really like to prevent being in situation where I need to keep our daughter away from him, and also want to ensure that first "smack" never happens. My partner says it's up to me to speak to his dad, but I know his dad won't listen to me. But also struggling to get my partner to acknowledge just how damaging smacking can be (he's also defensive, since of course he was smacked by his dad as a child). My partner and I have had numerous conversations about it already but I can't seem to get through to him.

Just to reassure you @Newparent101 my DH grew up in an emotionally and physically violent household and he’s a kind, gentle man who hates violence.

He’s has never laid a hand on our DDs. In fact he hates violence so much that he won’t even watch anything on tv which has violence in it. He walks out of the room.

he'd push the stroller and walk really far ahead of us, only for me to catch up and half the time she was bawling but he believes "crying will help her develop her voice"

He sounds loopy. Don’t let him push the stroller anymore.

Your DH needs to grow some. Sorry.

It sounds like the whole family are walking on eggshells around GF and are unlikely to back you up. This will likely lead to a fallout and people getting upset and not talking - that's what your DH is likely afraid of.

Your first conversation needs to be with DH.

I’d also highlight that you will raise it as a safeguarding issue that a 70 year old man constantly insists on taking away and being alone with your daughter while simultaneously taking ever opportunity to smack the bottom’s of his other female DGD’s.

It’s not just about the hitting of them - it’s fucking weird.

I'm sorry, OP - your immediate problem is your husband.

You're going to have to protect your children from their own father first.

You've tested him, and he's failed:

He scoffs at you when you present the evidence of the harm.

He walks away.

He hands your child over to his known-abuser father the moment you ask him to step up and look after them himself, while you take a moment of self care.

This is a victim/enabler in action.

FIL habitually removes your child from your sight - and deliberately walks away with them.

This is a committed controller in action.

From now on - standard procedure should be to never allow FIL or MIL (who may also be a victim/enabler) to be alone with your child.

You want a shower or the loo - take them in with you.

You take a walk - never let go of their hands or the stroller handle.

Practice your no.

I'm so sorry you're dealing with this.

I’d cut off contact and call the police.

It really is sounding more like a DH problem. He clearly won't listen to you so you need a bigger, older authority figure to come and knock some sense into him. Tell him not to stop hitting DH until he agrees that hitting someone smaller and more vulnerable than you is a terrible way to teach anyone anything sensible.

OP, this is not your father in law “disciplining” a child; it is something he is getting off on.

It is the behaviour of a deviant.

Sorry your DH is like this, sounds like he is quite damaged by his upbringing. I’d be issuing an ultimatum, either he gets therapy or we are done.

Or just don’t get in the situation to start with. I would not be going to stay with them op. Maybe get a hotel nearby if it’s really important to travel together.

I think I would pull out altogether. It is not right that he is walking off with your baby as she cried, op this is a huge safe guarding risk and in my profession considered a form of grooming where the parents are constantly undermined and rudderless. He is already calling the shots. He may not be ready to hit her yet, but he is preparing the groundwork already.

By the time he starts hitting your child she will already have learnt that what he says goes, and no one can stand up to him. Leaving the situation wide open to sexual abuse as.well. I would go as far as to say this is a text book example.

If your dh is scoffing at you op that is pretty disgusting. We are talking about the SAFETY of his baby. It’s very disrespectful that he dismissed your concerns - is he often like this?

Cancel the trip, and tell him there is much more work to be done on your relationship before you will ever agree to see them again. I am not sure I ever would. He can go alone and you can stay with your parents.

Be assertive now, you are going to have to advocate for your child many times, your dh should be extremely respectful of your wishes, and be readily listening to you. It is worrying he is not.

Your instincts are spot on, do not let anyone undermine you or make you doubt yourself. It’s not like they are ever going to be close and bonded, they live too far away (thank goodness) You have the perfect opportunity to put some really effective distance between the baby and a known abuser of his nieces.

Also of note, most children are sexually abused by family members and friends. It is sickening how many gf abuse their own gc. Do not give anyone the opportunity to harm your baby. It doesn’t matter what other people say, you stand by your convictions and instincts. You will never regret it.

Here’s a document in English re the German ban on corporal punishment

https://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/wp-content/uploads/country-reports/Germany.pdf

Isn’t smacking children illegal in Germany? If
you visit them and they hit your child, that’s a criminal offence, surely?

Yep and if I inadvertently found I had I'd leave him and not set foot in that person's house again

Thank you all. Spoke with DH about it again today. He agreed that he and I should not hit our child in principle. He's still is being very defensive and offended about my "criticism" of his dad, admitted that he is feeling triggered because it sounds like I'm questioning his own upbringing when he was a child.

Also spoke with my best friend who suggested that DH and I should have couples therapy hoping that we will gradually see eye to eye, and that refusing to stay at FIL over Christmas is rash since DC will only be 6 months old so no harm can come to her if we stay there for a week at that age, because she'll still be too young to have a tantrum/be running around, etc, so no "reason" for FIL to hit her.

Do you agree that DC won't be harmed by FIL at the young age of 6 months? Absolutely won't risk staying at FIL's over Christmas if there is a risk, but if there is no risk yet, then thinking long term, maybe it's worth taking time in therapy with DH to come to the agreement together about the approach to the FIL, before laying this boundary that inevitably I am going to set at some point, just a question of when. Ideally would be better if DH was in agreement with me at the time.

I'm feeling so panicked about this issue, it's so hard to see it in a nuanced rational way

I’d like to think he wouldn’t hurt a 6 month old but I also can’t imagine hitting my 3 year old.

I think if you had the support of your partner then you would feel less panic and reassurance that he would deal with anything.

It is also ok to want a different up bringing than you had. I have a friend from Slovak. She was also regularly hit as a child. It has caused some trauma for her. She takes her children back to see them but she has said they will never be left alone with her family as she would not risk them hitting them.

Someone way back within this thread spoke of a situation where a grandparent had smacked a 9 month old baby.
Utterly deplorable behaviour by my standards - yet somehow acceptable by theirs.

I’m concerned that your DH is triggered about his perceived insult about his childhood, over and above his concern that your 6 month old might also be struck by DH’s father.

I would want DH to be appalled not defensive.

I concur that getting DH’s agreement that grand-dad should not be allowed to hit children is a long term goal, but this is an agreement at least one step too far removed.

And unlikely to become effective a strategy within a month.

Grand-dad is the one who should be encouraged to seek therapy for his attitude towards defenceless children. Personally I feel that grandparent should not be allowed to see babies and toddlers until he had managed to break his habit-of-a-lifetime.

I was hit with a wooden coat hangar by my dad, when I was aged three, because my child-minder brought me back ‘late’. The injustice of it stuck with me.

it’s almost impossible to catch and stop an adult who decides to raise a hand and strike someone - inevitably, the first strike will make contact with the child’s body before another adult can successfully intervene.

As you can tell, I wouldn’t risk it with my little ones.

Even non-violent people can get very stressed with a crying baby so I absolutely wouldn't trust your FIL not to lose his temper if that happened, particularly as his go-to move is smacking, not comforting.

Your daughter will be in unfamiliar surroundings and you will be more stressed because of your horrible FIL, so your daughter may pick up on this and be more unsettled and grumpy.

I certainly wouldn't risk it and would stay at home this Christmas.

As another posters has queried, as smacking is illegal in Germany, hasn't FIL ever been reported when he has smacked the children in the family? He sounds like a tyrant and your DH's strategy is appeasement rather than challenging his dad's violent behaviour towards small children.

Clearly something amiss in your DH's reasoning...he would literally not consider it wrong if he saw his dad wallop your DC?! And not do anything?! Jesus christ.

And he can get over the 'criticism of his up-bringing'...utter crap.

Let's face it, your DH is still a frightened little boy when in his bully DF's space and will always do as he's told, despite being a grown man himself. That's sad. He needs therapy to unpick all that shit.

It is harmful if she sees him hit her cousins not just if he hits her. Absolutely no snowballs chance in hell I'd take my child there. He's a harmful narcissistic by the sounds of the running off and insisting she cries. What an awful man. Your friend is possibly slightly nuts to even advise that

I personally think you are substantially weakening your own position by choosing to go at Christmas. If your FIL starts hitting the other children in front of your six month old, yes of course that is going to scare and panic her. The issue is that he also walks off with your baby and says allowing her to scream is ‘developing her voice’

He sounds monstrous.

A six month old can be annoying to some people what he if reprimands her? Takes her away.

Your dh should be able to objectively look at his father and evaluate his violent actions. To evaluate his childhood as a MAN, and not the defensive stance of a child.

Dh sounds crippled ny his upbringing op, and as a result he is completely incapacitated, he can’t back you up or protect his own baby.

That is why you feel panic. You recognise how deeply vulnerable you are likely to be.

Your dh needs to go into counselling, explore his own childhood, and gain some perspective and understanding of yours and most parents concerns. It’s astonishing FIL has been left unchallenged for so long, beyond your SIL’s failed attempt to protect her dc.

You are not going to enjoy your week there, you are going to be very stressed I imagine. Your baby is still very young - and you are still finding your feet. How would you feel if you cancelled?

He's still is being very defensive and offended about my "criticism" of his dad, admitted that he is feeling triggered because it sounds like I'm questioning his own upbringing when he was a child.

This is the man who shuts down emotionally when there is conflict, right? That's damage right there. And yes, you can question his upbringing. If it wasn't in danger of opening him up to adult thoughts about how his upbringing wasn't perfect he wouldn't have an issue with it.

I would also say we consider children witnessing violence as victims, because the impact is so severe on their feelings of safety, it creates real fear - it is very harmful. Even if it’s not directed at them (for now)

The fact is your baby is not safe in their house is she. Bottom line is you can not guarantee her safety there, and you will never be able to do so.

Your dh is being bloody difficult about this op. Most men would completely understand you don’t actually want a violent thug anywhere near your tiny baby. It’s not unreasonable.

Until you can guarantee your baby’s safety I wouldn’t go. If it feels easier you can say it’s too soon to travel so far, at some point your dh needs to face up to what we are all saying, and who his father really is.

I wouldn't be spending time with him, I can't believe that sil allows her kids be smacked by him either . He would do it once and never see me and my kids again. If smacking is illegal in Germany I'd be reporting it . Your dh is under some spell , a lot of people were smacked as kids but realise its not the correct way to go with their own kids. He maybe doesn't want to admit his upbringing was somewhat abusive