To think women have double standards

[Scottishlass10]

DH & I were travelling by train and there was a group of women sitting across from us. If men discussed women the way they talked about men the men would be accused of misogyny. Later on DH said and I agree, that some women think it’s unacceptable to be objectified and spoken about in a sexual way but it’s ok for men to be treated like that and there certainly is double standards.

No I wasn’t uncomfortable and tbh I just found it amusing. It was my husband that commented about how he’d be lambasted as a man if he was to speak about women in such a way, which I did agree with

What utter drivel. I have never once seen men being gross and disrespectful about women on a train or other public transport (and I have seen this A LOT) and then being "lambasted" by anyone, let alone another man.

Are you seriously suggesting you have seen this happen? what BS and how many times has your husband who is apparently so concerned about double standards "lambasted" other random men in public about the way they talk eh?

Agree with this, it doesn't have the same power because of the context.

I agree, not a particularly nice thing to objectify anyone but the impact is different.

I remember a guy I dated said something very strange. He was basically resentful that women don’t objectify men (not to the same extent). That was literally his complaint “you don’t sexually objectify us”

I was so disgusted and quite baffled, he was actually complaining he wasn’t being objectified enough 🙄

I said yeah do you feel sad that you’re not sexually assaulted by us much either? And he got the message and shut up straight away.

So, as a man, its not the objectification that's the problem, its only when it's not flattering?
That pretty much confirms what I would have suspected TBH.
As long as women are talking about men being hot and how they would want sex with them, men wouldn't see this in the same light a woman would if men were talking that way about her. What men don't like is being laughed at for being ugly, short, having a small penis etc (understandably) because it upsets and offends. However if they're being spoken of as a desirable sex object, they're flattered and fine and not remotely intimidated, disempowered or feeling like prey?

Oops yep! That's what I meant to write!

Exactly. Men talk like this all the time and people typically don’t intervene.

I literally avoid taking the last train on a Friday or Saturday night as I don’t want to be sat next to a group of drunk men talking in a sleazy manner about the women they’ve met or saw earlier that night - or even making comments directly to you /other women that catch their eyes.

The difference is there is and always will be a power imbalance between men and women simply because the vast majority of men “could” overpower and physically harm the majority of women. Therefore misogyny accepted in society puts women in danger. While those women may have been saying things that were horrible and unacceptable it’s very unlikely that any of them could harm men. A group of men saying the same things and being egged on and encouraging by their peers could easily become violent and abusive because their beliefs are encouraged by those around them.

however i don’t believe that women have a double standard in general. Some women will say horrible things, some men will say horrible things. Most women I know don’t speak about men in that way.

Women can talk about men in sexualised / vulgar ways. I don't like it, i think it's gross.

But it's never as bad as when men do it, men go on to actually treat women as sex objects, their jokes often have an underlying theme of how much they can degrade a woman, what they managed to get them to agree too, what manipulation tactics they used to get their way or can go onto assault women to get their way. Not saying women never do this, but this is ultimately 'lad' culture.

Exactly. Ive seen this a million times over and not once in 25 years or so have I ever seen a man in the vicinity step up and tell them the way they are talking about women is gross. Not once.

In fact, when you have a bunch of drunken, rowdy, lairy blokes together talking in this vile way about women, even other men seem scared to say anything for fear of being verbally assaulted themselves.

That says it all doesnt it?- even their own gender wont tell them off for fear of repercussions. Imagine then, how hard it is for women. 🙄

Yes this always makes my eyes roll. Note they are always picturing a hot woman objectifying them.

Would they still desire objectification if the objectifier in question was a 7' tall, gay, aggressive rugby player?

😀👍

It’s a group of people, probably fuelled by alcohol, having a discussion among themselves. Is it necessarily PC? Probably not. But who is going to call them out for
it? Just like men have mysogynistic, sexist discussions between themselves all the time. Unlikely anyone will pull them up for it. It’s unsavoury yes but unless it’s directly harming a woman no one is going to care much. It probably is a double standard but who cares? Neither group is being held accountable.
It would a problem if someone was being directly harmed. Or if conversations like this were happening in the media- women talking in a derogatory sexist way about men and not being punished. But a silly conversation on a train? No.

@5128gap As long as women are talking about men being hot and how they would want sex with them, men wouldn't see this in the same light a woman would if men were talking that way about her. What men don't like is being laughed at for being ugly, short, having a small penis etc (understandably) because it upsets and offends. However if they're being spoken of as a desirable sex object, they're flattered and fine and not remotely intimidated, disempowered or feeling like prey?

Of course. I would be flattered if someone (sincerely) though I was handsome or attractive.

I agree that the dynamics are different with men and women. The reason why men generally don't have an issue with being found attractive is, if a woman did try to initiate something, the man would usually consent. It goes without saying that that wouldn't be true the other way round.

I'm conscious also that most women have likely been called beautiful many times, which is why a compliment about their appearance is generally not welcome. And then, this is the reason why men are confused when they discover that women don't appreciate comments about their appearance; because men would be happy if they were complimented on their appearance, so they assume a woman would appreciate the same compliment.

You clearly have t heard a bunch of men discussing women…

^ absolutely this.

@DryIce Would they still desire objectification if the objectifier in question was a 7' tall, gay, aggressive rugby player?

No idea what point you are trying to make here.

Heterosexual men aren't attracted to gay men. So of course that compliment would not be welcome.

Heterosexual men are attracted to women, so they appreciate objectification from women.

Yes this is my point, your context is getting a compliment from someone you are sexually attracted to. When you're being objectifed you do not usually get a choice as to who is doing the objectifying.

But imagine it was someone you weren't attracted to. And they weren't taking a hint and leaving it. And they were getting increasingly aggressive. And there were of a class known for it's intimation/abuse of your class. And there was a significant size differential.

Correct.

Exactly. It’s ridiculous and yeah based on a very specific fantasy no doubt.

That pretty much reflects how I imagine the difference in perception of behaviour from men and women would look, and also the opinions of other men ive heard on the subject.
A man hearing a woman comment about him sexually will probably view it as no more than an option, I can have sex with her if I want, or not if I don't. He has also as you rightly point out, unlikely to have the experience of his appearance being the most important and commented on thing about him.
He knows the world doesn't view him as merely a sex object so the occasional 'objectification', provided it flatters him is not going to threaten his place in the world or contribute to a sense he is lesser, good for one thing only etc.

There are double standards for different genders, sexuality, age, race etc.

But in this case it is a double standard, but then again reddit is full of men saying catcalling is a compliment and they would love it. So not sure it is comparable

@DryIce Yes this is my point, your context is getting a compliment from someone you are sexually attracted to. When you're being objectifed you do not usually get a choice as to who is doing the objectifying.

I would still be happy with that compliment even if it came from, hypothetically, a woman that was unattractive, because I wouldn't find it disgusting or unwelcome for any woman to find me attractive.

I am really confused about the inclusion of height and build regarding the rugby player though. What's that about? The height and build of a gay man is irrelevant. I would still be disgusted if a tiny 5' skinny gay man said he found me attractive. That's because as a heterosexual man, I am disgusted by all other men.

@5128gap A man hearing a woman comment about him sexually will probably view it as no more than an option, I can have sex with her if I want, or not if I don't.

Most single men would have sex with the overwhelming majority of women, if the option presented itself. That's also key; the fact that most men would consent to most sexual activity.

Urgh, quite honestly, the more you post OP the more it sounds like your husband is disappointed that he can no longer objectify women. He sounds like the kind of dinosaur who yearns for the "good old days" when you could pinch women's bums at work or make crude "carry on" comments about the size of his female coworkers breasts and have a good laugh about it.

Now he is whining that it's not faaaair that the tables have turned. Yuck.

I’m not surprised that a man is completely baffled by the relevance of a person finding you physically attractive being physically imposing.
It’s crazy you’ve spent so much time on a women’s forum yet still have zero empathy for women.