To think women have double standards

[Scottishlass10]

DH & I were travelling by train and there was a group of women sitting across from us. If men discussed women the way they talked about men the men would be accused of misogyny. Later on DH said and I agree, that some women think it’s unacceptable to be objectified and spoken about in a sexual way but it’s ok for men to be treated like that and there certainly is double standards.

@Scottishlass10 you are very lucky then. I have to say in the day time I feel more care free but at night I would worry about walking alone (I even fret about getting into a taxi alone), I also have a DD20 and the worry I have for her (that I do not project), is high.

i have given my DDs advice on what to do to feel and be as safe as possible, my eldest and her house mates have rape alarms.

so yes if you have gone through life not afraid or putting in provisions to be as safe as possible then you are very lucky indeed.

Yeah men who whine about things like this are usually dismissive of the reality of the existing power dynamics and systemic inequalities that oppress and harm women.

Instead of spending their energy on calling actual men out for the real ongoing damage they do to women on a daily basis, they’d rather try and get on their high horse about a group of women on a train sleazing over a man. So that they can pretend we are all as bad as each other and “women are just as bad”.

When it’s women who are being terrorised by men all over the world. They all know that, things like this are just a feeble attempt to deflect and wear their victim hat.

I don’t engage in the behaviour of those women on the train myself, but to use that to argue that “it’s not fair - men can’t do it” and that’s “double standards” etc is nonsense for so many reasons which pp have outlined.

I am not sure how much simpler I can make it. Men, as a group, have a documented history of abusing women. This is possible due to their superior size and strength. In the absence of a sub-pocket of women who are simultaneously unattractive to you while being sufficiently bigger and stronger than you to have the potential to enforce action upon you - I ask you to picture a much bigger stronger man

the difference is: if a bunch of men did this, you would never say "all men do this" because, "not all men"

but the minute a woman, or some women, behave badly or whatever it is "all women" and nobody bats an eyelid.

So there's the double standard you're looking for. Some people are arseholes their sex generally isn't the only factor in that

Indeed but just so we're clear for that poster - a 7ft foot tall gay rugby player would be able to physically overpower you and do what he wanted to you. That's what it's like for women - men are stronger than us and can use this to overpower us and do what they want if they choose. That's why when men are being loud and lairy and talking about our tits, it's fucking scary because we don't know if they'll stick to talking or decide they fancy taking a look and a feel and then.....

Its because the big guy could have the power to force you and the little guy probably couldn't. So while both might disgust, the first could scare you as well. The point being made is that to us, pretty much all of you are the big guy, because we will typically be smaller and weaker than even the smallest of you.

You may think this is true but it almost certainly isn't. Most women are subconsciously aware of thr threat from men from a very young age.

You may not have this thought in the forefront of your brain but I bet you don't run at night across a Common or park your car in a deserted multistorey car park or walk into a bar full of men?

I don’t engage in the behaviour of those women on the train myself, but to use that to argue that “it’s not fair - men can’t do it” and that’s “double standards” etc is nonsense for so many reasons which pp have outlined

Exactly. I dont engage in that kind of talk either but the very fact his first thought was: "well, thats not faaaaaiiiiiir is it- what a double standard". Rather than: "talking in such a manner is really disrespectful to a fellow human being" is very illuminating.

It indicates that the perceived "unfairness" that he cant do it is far more distressing to him than the fact that it's dehumanising another person.

@Thedevilhasfinallycaughtupwithhim I’m not surprised that a man is completely baffled by the relevance of a person finding you physically attractive being physically imposing. It’s crazy you’ve spent so much time on a women’s forum yet still have zero empathy for women.

That discussion point was about me, and men, not women.

We were also talking about how men perceive objectifications, and comments about their attractiveness. I made the point that a straight man would find any objectification from another man disgusting. Height isn't relevant. It could be a skinny 5' man.

And women would find any objectification from a man they were unattracted to be disgusting.

You’re failing to recognise the big thing that sets us apart is vulnerability and fear.

For you it simply boils down to whether you’d shag then or not. For us it boils down to how fucking frightened of them we are.

Yes it is relevant, when the difference is whether this person could only be capable of making offensive comments or could literally pin you down and assault you with no ability for you to fight them off and get away, as happened to me and gave me lifelong PTSD

I dont step outside "expecting" to be raped or assaulted either. However, I have previously been sexually assaulted on the tube by a man so the fact it could happen is always at the back of my mind, yes. How could it not be?

I think you are being disingenuous to suggest that as a woman walking home alone at night or hearing sudden footsteps behind her in a deserted car park you would not feel a modicum of fear for your own safety.

I'm working class and I don't fear men when I go out, how ridiculous. The way mumsnet go on you'd think men are waiting round every corner to jump out on us. Most men are decent, these are our sons and husbands. There are a tiny minority of idiots of course (of both sexes) but it doesn't really warrant your statement of 'every time a woman goes out' that sounds like a deranged anxiety.

I see your point.
but my 6 foot son won’t go into a city bar alone.
And these women don’t just leer at him but try and grab in places they shouldn’t …..

How often do you walk alone at night?

I run 3-4 times a week at night.

And you’re never frightened?

Well, good luck to you. I hope you always remain unaffected by the threat of males.

Agreed, women objectifying men doesn't lead to women being sexually violent towards men. Vice versa it does.

It's also made me think of the stepson who was overhead talking about his Swedish stepmother on that other thread. He said some really misogynistic things and some people were ok with it. It's not comparable.

I do get what you're saying; my husband is tall & looks like he can take care of himself; he tried to say he'd be intimidated by a loud group of women, but i pointed out that he wouldn't be in fear for his life or of being raped, a situation that many women experience on the regular. I don't have the head space to worry about men's hurt feelings when women are raped, abused & murdered by men daily. You just can't compare it.

Yikes
and bear in mind I’m only replying to the last quote.
may dh,’s parent divorced when he was 8
when his ‘d’ m remarried she told ex they didn’t need him anymore and slammed the door in his face (the 3 kids can remember this as were there)
after many repeats ( accompanied by some heated words - mil was always a bit hot headed ) he realised he couldn’t put his kids through it any more door stop fights
He always pay maintenance, though mil denied this ( was often caught out in lies)
Just showing the other side of the coin.
once the kids became adults they formed a very close and loving relationship with Dad -didn’t tell dm.
And he never called her or talked about her in a negative way

With brave women like you fighting their corner, men might be able to win their struggle.

Yes, I agree women are guilty of double standards. Most like equality when it suits or advantages them. They’re selective about it.

Oh all you cool girls are so right! women have awful double standards and men are paragons of virtue.

You have convinced me.

You are not wrong at all. There was a thread just this week about getting off with foreign men. It was really 👀.