To think that “fatphobia” is sometimes just discomfort with the truth about health?

[MeasuredOnyxSwan]

Not always but sometimes. We’ve turned every health comment into oppression. When did personal responsibility become offensive?

Honestly, I've been both fat and slim in my time, but every time a topic like this comes up it makes me roll my eyes. Why is it considered acceptable to comment negatively on anyone else's body (or face, come to that) in any way, unless one has been specifically asked for an opinion?

Why would you stop taking medication that is resolving your issues?

I think fatphobia isn't about health at all, its about not wanting to be tainted with something we know is seen as undesirable and low status. People often want to be connected to and friends with others who live and embody the life and status they want for themselves, not always but often. So a fat person if they are successful and wealthy might not face the same fatphobia as a fat person who is in an average job or struggling financially.

I suppose when someone is written off because they are larger it could be considered phobic because you aren't getting to the point where you know their personality, talents, work ethic or even approach to health. It's the same as writing anyone off because you happen to be uncomfortable with it be that race, religion, if the are able bodied and so on. Lots of people drink too much, never exercise, do drugs, do dangerous sports, indulge in risky sex, eat a crappy diet, don't brush their teeth and so on but it's all ok as long as they aren't visibly fat. Thinness doesn't automatically equate to health.

I don't use them but my sibling who is also a doctor does. Reasons for stopping are known (and potentially unknown) side effects and the cost

HTH

Bit of a difference between 'fat cunt' and 'idiot'. And fat people might be doing something about it and still get abused - it's pretty common to get insulted while out exercising as a fat person by all accounts! Weight loss takes time. But someone shouting abuse is far more likely to make that person give up activity. Shame makes people less motivated to take care of themselves - if the world thinks you're worthless, it's very hard to pull yourself up out of a slump and take positive action.

Besides, there is mounting evidence that excess weight really is to do with hormones, dysregulated appetite, unmedicated ADHD, menopause, trauma, eating disorders - that there really are solid physical reasons that drive a person's weight higher. All the GLP-1 research points to medical contributing factors beyond simple willpower - it's why these meds are so wildly effective. So I really don't think it's fair to say it's ok for fat people to be abused in the street as their size is their choice. I know that's not a popular viewpoint on mumsnet but there is a lot more scientific understanding than ever before into obesity and it is more complex than just 'personal responsibility' on its own. Even if it was, I don't think we should be contorting ourselves to find ways to excuse or mitigate those who shout 'fat cunt' at people in the street really!

Talking about weight is incredibly sensitive even if it’s coming from a place of concern for a loved one. Of course no one should be shouting abuse at someone in the street.

I agree with those saying that it’s more difficult to talk about weight than something like drinking too much, for example. Saying that relative X is drinking two bottles of wine a night and you’re worried about them is somehow easier than saying that you’re worried that relative Y has been over 20 stone for a while and now struggles with stairs, gets breathless, etc. I’m not sure what the answer is.

So I think we have to figure out WHY it's worse - why it's harder to bring up weight than drinking or smoking. And I think the answer is societal fatphobia, honestly. I think we have regarded fat people as the butt of the joke, as stupid and uncontrolled and greedy and foolish and ugly and hopeless for so long that it does upset people to have it brought up. Because there is so much shame and judgement and condemnation attached. Drinking and smoking have had at some points a certain cachet and aura of cool that being fat has never had. I think if we could detach all the associated stigma from weight - and paradoxically to some, actually move the discussion away from personal responsibility and more towards societal causes and solutions - then it wouldn't cut so deep and be so painful for people to talk about and to hear. That's my opinion anyway, we would do better to look beyond telling people they're greedy, lazy and disgusting. I think GLP-1s are game changing and can really shift the conversation so I do hope there is a wider rollout and easier and more affordable access to them - along with strategies around increasing movement, activity and strength building. But I do believe these changes take place societally and that major health issues aren't resolvable by individuals alone. And I think there is a deep resistance to that when it comes to weight, and that there are many people who much prefer to judge fat people than to actually come up with ways to help.

Yes, I agree with this. But would also add that it is easier to criticise behaviour than to criticise a person. So saying to anyone "smoking is bad for you" or even "too much sugar is bad for you" is not a criticism of that person. "You are too fat" is a criticism of what they are, not their behaviour. So that's another big difference. Being fat is something you are, not something you do.

I also agree with people saying that it isn't particularly easy telling someone to stop smoking either and you will get defensiveness there too.

Painting fat people as overly sensitive about it is another stick to beat them with though, so no doubt people will stick to the "we're allowed to tell smokers off. Why not fatties 🥺? Not fair" line

You are too fat" is a criticism of what they are, not their behaviour

Yes, this is so true and a really good point. There are some clumsy attempts to change the language and talk about people 'living with overweight or obesity' and it's pretty clunky and awkward now, but I think perhaps a way of trying to shift that perspective and make it less of an all-consuming personal criticism. I don't love it, but see where that idea might be coming from!

But why are we even talking about the best way to criticise a person? Why don't we just... not criticise?

I don't tbh! If I meet someone who appears to be very overweight, I do not feel a sudden need to tell them about the evils of their ways, because I'm not a HCP...and also not a cunt, also not a highly strung food and weight fixated maniac like about a quarter of mumsnet seems to be.

But some people do need to raise it with people, eg their doctors or maybe their spouses if genuinely concerned.

I can remember being in college,so early 1990s ..I could just fit in to a size 12 in a few bits in river island..but a 14 everywhere else.
My McDonald's uniform was a size 18 ....😩
Where ever I went ...l felt I was the fattest person around ..I was treated as a big girl ...yet that was the thinnest I had ever been ,the media was making out Bridget Jones was fat ,and special k had us eating cereal instead of a meal.
I was badly bulimic and only managing to keep to my size 14 ,by literally throwing up most things I ate ..
If only ...if only I'd been happy in that size 14 body ,and not been enrolling at weight watchers and slimming world constantly..I was only just 17 and hating my body so much ..
Anyway ,I couldn't keep the low food intake up ,the body rebels when it's being starved .
I spent the next 30 years battling builima ,binge eating disorder,and steadily putting weight on ..untill I reached a massive amount..a huge number ,that I'm to ashamed to say on here .
A year a go I started on Monjroro and I've nearly lost 10 stone ..but I still need to loose more ..
I'm terrified I'm going to put it back on ..
I really wish I had just managed to keep my size 14 body and love it .
Now I'd give anything to be that size again
Although..to be fair ..I'm actually not that far off it 😁

Fair comments, and I totally agree with your last paragraph (especially speaking as someone whose husband currently seems to think Mounjaro cancels out macadamia nuts. wry smile)

I do get riled by the sort of wide-eyed 'but I'm telling you for your own good!' type stuff that seems to be common currency around MN and irl, though.

@PracticalPixie @ruethewhirl That's the thing-is it a criticism to mention weight or alcohol consumption or smoking to a loved one?

The example I gave up upthread of a relative who’s been over 20 stone for years and is gradually experiencing more mobility and other health problems such as sleep apnea is a real one in our extended family. No one is comfortable saying anything so nothing changes.

Would it be a criticism if someone said that they’re worried? This person is an adult and will likely need care unless the situation changes. It’s scary.

I'm really sorry if I'm wrong, (correct me if so) but I don't think you have read my previous comments, so won't be clarifying again.

You don't need to say anything
Do you not think they don't know ?
What good will your comment do ,other than make them feel bad .
They will be desperately hoping no one mentions their weight.
Do you think they don't look in the mirror?
People know what size they are ,they know what society thinks of them ,they absorb or the negative comments,and will be desperately wishing they could change .

I don't know what help there is for alcohol,drugs issues
But I do know ,as an over weight ( slightly at first ) woman with builima there was no help on the NHS .. despite me asking ..unless you are very thin with builima there was no help .binge eating disorder that came on after I managed to stop bulimia ( by using the book the builima help method ..if anyone is interested)
There was no help with binge eating either ..in fact,it wasn't even taken seriously by two doctors I saw ..stopping that lead to weight gain , depression,more weight gain more depression..and then I was referred for weight loss surgery on NHS ....ha ...how many hoops did I jump through over 4 years to get to a pre op assessment...I did everything asked of me and more .then told my op was in Nov 24 ..two months later an email telling me another 5 years wait ...
I didn't think I'd still be alive in another 5 years ..
So I started monjroro and lost 10 stone ISH .
I know personal responsibility,I know it was my responsibility to sort out ..I just really needed some help at various points in my life and there was none .
And when you get big ,you move less ,and so if you don't eat less ,you put weight on where someone else wouldn't do ,so it very quickly spirals out of your control

YABU. because what people describe as 'fatphobia' is not usually objective remarks about relationships between obesity and illness, but hostile, mocking or contemptuous comments on how people look.

Nah. When I was 5 stone heavier people assumed I was stupid. Genuinely. Sometimes they'd fail to hide their surprise when I'd say something intelligent, and often they'd speak to me like a child.

It's night and day now I'm not obese. People look me in the eye, wait for me to finish speaking and generally aren't knobheads.

I very much doubt those people even knew they were doing it. I also doubt it had anything to do with them being concerned about my health.

But some people do need to raise it with people, eg their doctors or maybe their spouses if genuinely concerned.

@PracticalPixie That's the comment I focused on. What if the person doesn’t have a spouse - could another relative who loves them say something, or would it be perceived as a criticism? I suppose I don’t think it would be fatphobia or a criticism.

If it isn't fatphobia, then it isn't what the op wanted to start a bunfight discussion about.

I personally think there is a risk you may make things worse and I think that you "saying something" is highly unlikely to be a magic, weight loss, wand.

However, if you honestly think this person has no idea their health is suffering due to their weight, and you think you can raise it without pushing her into comfort eating, hiding her eating, (which is a disordered way of eating), causing her a lot of stress or making her want to hide away altogether, then go for it.

If not, then you need to ask yourself why you feel the need to tell her. What are you really hoping to achieve?

Spouses are tied together legally in a way that adult relatives are not, so it is not a given that it is your place to say anything at all.

We had adverts everywhere making smokers a pariah, empahsising how disgusting the smell was etc etc

Imagine the same tone but for people who are overweight?

@PracticalPixie @Pugslug I get what you’re saying about what good would it do/what would be your reason for saying something.

I suppose I’m thinking about my earlier comparison with someone drinking two bottles of wine a night. I’ve heard of families staging interventions for alcoholism (never personally been involved in one). Would that approach be incorrect for someone who is obese to the point that their mobility and health are deteriorating?

Note I’m talking about the extreme situations, not a person who drinks socially or someone who’s a couple of stone overweight.

This got me thinking: why is it socially acceptable to tell someone that they are slowly killing themselves because they are a smoker or a drinker but not because they eat too much/unhealthy?

Because people have to eat, but they do not have to smoke or drink alcohol.

With the exception of airplane seating and the impact of manual handling larger people on Health & social carers/ HCPs, how exactly does an obese person negatively impact on you in the same way as passive smoking which causes cancer in non smokers, and alcohol which is linked to violent and impulsive beahviour that impacts on others?