Blindsided at breakfast!

[Newname699032]

So I'm part of a wider friendship group of 6 women. We became friends through our children. I'm closest to two of them much more so than the others. One of others I find tricky sometimes. She's very opinionated and can make comments that I think comes across as critical.

Today at a breakfast with our kids, myself and one of the women I'm closest to whom I will call F, and this other woman whom I will call N, were sitting together chatting. I find in this dynamic when the 3 of us are together (our children do the same hobby), they talk the most and I feel my voice is often unheard (have felt like this my entire life so I'm fully aware that that is my 'stuff'). They will unintentionally (I assume) talk over me or not always really respond to things I say.

So, today the topic of one of our mutual friends marriage came up. Admittedly I am probably feeling a bit drained and frustrated as I have been supporting one of the other two women that I'm closest to navigate her marriage difficulties and now another one if going through problems. From mine, and others perspective, the common denominator here seems to be the men being disrespectful and basically checked out of the marriages and family life. I also feel quite passionate about this topic as 1. It has been present in my life as I support my friend and 2. I have some experience of my own marriage challenges. 3. I feel sorry for all the kids involved.

F was telling a story about someone else she knows and giving their example. I did interrupt her/try to interject my opinion (I suppose unlike most of the time, I persevered in giving my opinion this time) when N, in my opinion, quite angrily and aggressively, physically turned towards me and said 'can you stop being so defensive and let her finish'. I was absolutely gobsmacked and felt like I'd been punched in the gut. I responded that I wasn't being defensive which she double downed on and said I was. I repeated that I wasn't and continued making my point. All the while feeling almost sick at this confrontation. We had finished our food at this point anyway so paid and left. F text me afterwards to say that she was shocked by the whole thing and it was all completely uncalled for by N.

I genuinely still feel shaken by this interaction and don't think I can be around N anymore. I think I'm just venting and lookong for validation that N was completely out of line here? She could surely have just said something like, 'let F finish, I want to hear this', in a calm, normal tone?!

Thanks if you read it all!

You sound like a trio of gossips. Stop discussing your friend's personal business at breakfast.

That said, N sounds like she doesn’t like you much, at the very least she tolerates you as long as you keep quiet. Quiet politeness the way forward for you. Though no doubt the next breakfast she organises will just be the two of them and they’ll be gossiping about you!

You all sound like a bunch of nasty women. Discussing other people's marriages.

I definitely sympathise with you OP but tbh I’ve no time for this gossipy group!

When you're passionate about something and have a valid point its normal to interrupt so you dont forget thr point youre making, its part of normal conversing and people shouldn't be so uppity about it. She was rude and you sound a bit sensitive and have got a shock at her reaction, which i think is rude, not you for just voicing your opinion when youve already said you dont often feel heard, good for you for speaking up, ignore that woman!!

I can't understand this really. You feel drained by your other friends marriage and yet this was the time you decided to be determined to put your opinion in. Why?

Don't talk about people,this mutual friends marriage problem is not your coffee morning entertainment, your gossipy gaggle of 3 I'm sure wouldn't like something personal to you to be a topic for others. That's the bit your should be feeling guilty./ Reflecting on. The rest is group politics, N probably dislikes you and your ramping up in a discussion, any discussion, has made it bubble up into an eruption. F is weak and you will never really know who she likes, how can you she's on that fence.

Yes it's annoying when someone interrupts but it happens all the time as people want to add things to the discussion. I have known two mums in our circle who were openly rude and volatile. Both expected others to defer to them. They didn't improve so I'd be inclined to just keep a bit of a distance. Say hello but leave it at that. It's good your friend also thought her rude.

You don't seem to have much in the way of a relationship to lose with N, so instead of reorganizing your life so that you can avoid her, why don't you confront her and clear the air? Can't get worse; might get better.

It’s a bit bizarre that she used the word “defensive.” It sounds like she’s been holding in some feelings and just flew off the handle with a small provocation.
I’d be polite but distant - she isn’t a friend.

I always find keeping out of other people’s marriages works for me…

If someone calls you defensive, they know they were attacking you.

It's better not to protest "not defensive" but to point out they're the one who attacked. (Or to counter-attack, but that's for a different thread!)

It's all very Jane Austen. Sitting around gossiping about other people, turning on each other and now everyone's "shaken up". Did nobody just want a nice quiet breakfast? Stop spending time with each other. It sounds draining.

You say you were at breakfast with the kids, were they at the table while you were dissecting other peoples marriages?

How do you think your mutual friend would feel to know not only was she the subject of your discussions but that it got so het up, it caused bad feeling amongst you?

I would say to N, Do you have a problem with me? If so, get it out now. You need to cut her down at the knees. We have a woman like this at our WI, she is ignorant and only her opinion counts. My answers to her are No, thank you. I'm fine, No. And so it goes, She finally has got the message and leaves me alone. Try disagreeing with N and say 'I don't agree with you', and make sure that your point of view is validly backed up. If she challenges you, say: We all have our own opinions which must be respected. Just keep repeating it. Alternatively, drop her. When you get to my age you just drop people who don't suit. I even ignore them now. They are just not worth it.

Agree. And maybe stop talking so much about other people's marriages behind their back.

This

It sounds like N has form for being verbally dominant, she has pulled you up on her own habit, which is often the way ironically.
Blind to our own faults and super critical of others
F is a people pleaser, probably tells N you were rude but you that you weren't.

You feel unheard so you jump in rather than be calm and assertive and it's bitten you.
Work on your communication skills

Personally I would give these two a swerve, it's doesnt sound like a mutually respectful, supportive friendship.
You find her critical and dominant
Gossiping about others marriages isn't very nice in general
Forget who is right/ wrong here
It's not for you ...

F text me afterwards to say that she was shocked by the whole thing and it was all completely uncalled for by N.

F didn’t actually say this at the time did she?
and I’d be curious about what she actually text you

I imagine (just from your response on this thread if nothing else !) that N was bang on the money.

Oh, and all this focus on us talking about other marriages. Yeah, that can get messy but we were talking about a mutual friend going through a very tough time with her husband. Naturally going to come up.

Amongst a group of gossipy unpleasant people…. Yes it will “naturally”. One up

You and N just don't like each other and wouldn't get together if it wasn't for the friendship dynamics.

F is probably the kind who just hates conflict and will say anything to appease situations.

If it isn't for your kids, none of you who really get together. In such circumstances? I would avoid talking about any controversial or passionate matters and stick to the weather like conversations.

I used to think gossiping was advising/being interested / caring -now I recognise it for gossiping and don’t do it, and don’t miss it.

But you can still be heard without interrupting which you said in your OP you did. Maybe this is something you need to work on - I know it has been for me. You feel passionate about a point and want to jump in. But let the person finish and them make your point.

Are you sure that F wasn’t saying this out of awkwardness/ to appease you?

later you say: “i wish F had spoken up too at the time. That stings. And she is absolutely a people pleaser. Lovely, but will always stay neutral in fear of upsetting the applecart.”

I feel my voice is often unheard (have felt like this my entire life so I'm fully aware that that is my 'stuff'). They will unintentionally (I assume) talk over me or not always really respond to things I say.

This isn't a right or wrong situation, this is a take a leaf out of her book situation. N does something much better than you do, which you need to learn.

Next time you feel you are being interrupted, or not listened to, interject, say so, and carry on with what you were saying. Yes, it will feel blunt, and rude, to you, but you won't have to do it often - either they will learn to treat you with respect, or the friendships will end.

And yes, I agree that I wish F had spoken up too at the time. That stings. And she is absolutely a people pleaser. Lovely, but will always stay neutral in fear of upsetting the applecart.

Well, yes, perhaps, but she wouldn't need to if you spoke up for yourself, and you don't speak up for yourself, which makes you a people pleaser too. Not sure why it's F's job to protect boundaries around you when you don't do it yourself. I'm sure she has enough going on in her own life, without taking on yours too.

Which sounds like it might be something else to learn from your friends, if you are feeling drained by supporting others, yet not supporting yourself in basic everyday ways. Boundaries. Put your own oxygen mask on first, etc.

I have a friend like you.

she earnestly thinks that she’s the patient, empathetic one who is hard done by because we don't pay her theories and conversational black holes enough attention.

she is a chronic interrupter, talks over people, becomes “passionate” to the point of rudeness and occasionally gets pulled up.

she has many great qualities but sitting round a breakfast table with her talking about sensitive matters is not where she shines.

and whilst occasionally I will say “let x finish” or similar I’m also guilty of brushing over it after the event and saying “ yes x was very upset, you were fine”. Because I’m not her therapist and don’t have hours to unpick her feelings about why she’s not unreasonable.

Surely interrupting someone is rude & you should wait for them to finish and then make your point? Interrupting someone suggests your opinion is more important than theirs?

If F is a people pleaser then N may have pulled you up in it because she knew F wouldn’t. I also wouldn’t read too much into F being on your ‘side’; there is a fair chance she would have sent a similar message to N if she is very conflict averse.

Or perhaps she was just being kind to your feelings by saying you didn’t interrupt her. If by your own admission you interrupted regularly, and you are more likely to downplay your own actions to make yourself look better, then it sounds like you did interrupt a lot, to the point someone else had to tell you to stop.

You shouldn’t have been shouted at like that (if you were actually shouted at, that is), but you were in the wrong.