Trans woman in Riot Women! WTF?

[OneBadKitty]

I usually love anything by Sally Wainwright, but what was she thinking by have a trans-woman in a band called Riot Women that is supposed to be full of menopausal women singing about HRT and other female related issues?

'Just don't watch the show if the very brief appearance of a trans woman in a very minor role bothers you so much'

No need to miss the show, it is very good. His appearance is brief and not remotely central to the story. No idea why he's in it tbh unless it's to get people talking which has happened here.

Are you missing the point deliberately?

'the point she is making is that literally none of the comments about this programme are about the horrific violence against women depicted, as committed by Men Who Are Not Trans. And yet all the comments are about one trans actor/character - it does give the impression that opposing the trans and painting them all as a collective of predators'

We can all agree that male violence toward women is abhorrent. I don't think anyone has suggested we should accept it and say it's ok? It is part of the drama though. Granted why SW included such a graphic scene is questionable.

I also don't think anyone is suggesting that all trans people are predators, rather pointing out they are men and therefore not necessary in a drama about a female only band, particularly one that is singing about women's issues.

I don’t think it’s to get people talking. I think it’s the writer’s message about acceptance and recognition of difference. Increasingly important in a world where people parrot what they hear in the right wing media and spout histrionic and disproportionate hatred of whole groups of people. We’ve seen this kind of behaviour before and it doesn’t end well.

It isn't disproportionate hatred. I don't hate trans people they can dress as they wish thats fine, I just won't be complicit in their delusions about changing sex.

The actor even says in an interview that trans people take hrt so there's that link with menopausal women!! I mean seriously. Men do not experience menopausal problems and how very typical that a trans person would try to liken it to their experiences.

What do you want me to say? I’m not prepared to get into horse trading about ‘which misogyny is the worst’, I see them all as two cheeks of the same arse. Men, regardless of their ‘identity’ beating up and raping women is bad. Removing women’s rights and our words necessary to advocate for ourselves is also bad.

Men expressing violent language towards women in public is bad. Women defending, justifying and minimising it is also bad.

I am still a bit gobsmacked about PP earlier using male violence against women as a means to stop us talking about this particular strand of misogyny.

Why are some women on this thread so focused on defending the casting of this man? Would you have been gutted if there wasn’t a trans identifying young man in this programme about middle aged women and their lives?

Are you complaining about the character, the actor or both? You seem a little muddled.

That’s not what I asked though. I’m trying to understand where the supporters are coming from. Why you (plural) are happy to call women c*nts and terfs and justify violent male language simply for expressing our opinions on the subject? That’s all we’ve done here.

Why?

It's is fiction. It is not a documentary. The author of fiction decides the content. You seem to be requiring journalistic standards of reportage to be applied to a Sunday night entertainment programme. It is a childish argument and immensely irritating.

Personally I haven't called anyone anything - I just find it baffling that all the focus in the comments about this programme is on one character with a tiny part when it addresses so many huge issues faced by women.

I abhor TRAs who namecall just as much as I do the kind of people who do cowardly strikethroughs when calling transwomen perverts. Two cheeks of the same arse, as it were.

I haven't called anybody on here a cunt or a terf. If some posters declare that they refuse to watch this series because in a 6-hour long drama, a trans character appears probably for less than 2 minutes, that is their prerogative. Why should I care whether these posters watch it or not?

Why do we need to acknowledge that though?

Also the ability to distinguish the actor from the character played would be nice - the programme is fiction, after all.

Are we now separating the ‘art’ from the ‘artist’ now in order to excuse a man using violent language towards women? Ok.

I suppose thinking about it, it would have been REALLY weird if Sally had written the character more truthfully for that actor. Imagine - he turns up at band rehearsal with his ‘Fuck Terfs’ t shirt and the lesbian (by definition a terf if she is actually a lesbian) has to leave the room.

I don’t think wearing a t shirt that says, for example “fuck the elite” is violent or threatening in anyway.

Placards or t-shirts etc with fuck the whatever are a long established mode of expression in politics and activism across the board.

Fuck the patriarchy is one of my personal favourites. Fuck Tories has been around for decades as a well loved protest.

It’s not violent or threatening, and saying it is over and over again doesn’t make it so.

I also really object to the near constant deliberate use of male pronouns on this thread for the actor being discussed. If you don’t agree with using she/her that’s fine, but going out of your way to repeatedly use he/him/man is horrible.

There’s a lot of mockery on the FWR board directed at trans people saying they don’t feel safe in their place of work or online because of targeted abuse.

Let’s just take a moment to remember there’s a real identifiable human playing that role. And a lot of other trans people seeing them getting hauled over the internet coals for the massive crime of being a transwoman cast to play the minor role of a transwoman in a tv show.

They’re literally just doing their job. and there are multiple posters here determined to position them as threatening, violent, creepy etc.

It’s so horrible seeing the anti trans sentiment of mn escalating year on year. Pushing back on this actor and this role is nothing but transphobia.

Both. I’m not muddled. Women supporting an actor who obviously hates women without his approved opinions might be a bit muddled.

There is nothing horrible about using correct pronouns. No one has been insulting about his appearance or his manner. Facts are facts though.

The drama is about women. To put a trans person in the band is just clunky and unnecessary.

If there was a show about male erectile dysfunction <for example. I'm obviously not saying that equates in any way to the menopause> and a transperson joined their band and said in interviews because she took testeoserone she could relate I'd say that was wrong too.

Bundle, you’re spamming this thread with bullshit assertions about an actual named human being.

Please stop.

You’re actively inciting online hostility towards a person who has done nothing more than be trans in the world.

The pp is not doing anything you claim. They are politely pointing out facts.
We all wish the actor well. A different drama that isn't particularly about women may be better suited.

Wearing that T-shirt does not mean hating all women. Not all women espouse your opinions - I for one do not feel the least bit as if that shirt is aimed at me.

What utter nonsense. “We all wish the actor well” doesn’t line up with calling them woman hating, threatening violence, and creepy.

You’re either deluded or shit stirring for the funsies.

Do people really believe that when a TV channel commissions a drama that the writer gets total autonomy and that there are never any tweeks made to fulfil criteria required for minoriy represention targets or all the other requirements placed upon the channel?

I think Sally Wainwright definitely gets complete autonomy. If she didn’t she’d just take her work to a different platform. No TV channel would turn her away, in fact they’re probably fervently hoping she falls out with the Beeb. She’s the hottest TV writer around now.

Where did I say ALL women?

I specifically said ‘hates women without his approved opinions’.

You feel safe from his hostility because you hold his approved opinions, clearly. Well done you.

It sounds like you are comfortable with his violent language being aimed at SOME women.

And yes, ‘Fuck Terfs’ IS violent language aimed at women despite the utterly desperate claim from PP that it is not violent or threatening.

Why are you saying pronouns can't be changed?

I've never engaged in debate on Mumsnet before and I don’t know what compelled me on this occasion other than I love Sally Wainwright and wanted to defend her position as a writer. A few thoughts before I go.

There are some loud and persistent voices on here who I don’t believe care one bit about women’s rights but who are essentially bullies for whom trans people are the latest easy target. 30 years ago their kind would have been laying in to the gays. 60 years ago it would have been people like my dad, who asked nothing of this country and - in the face of horrible racism - produced a fine family who are massive contributors to this society.

If these posters cared about women’s’ rights, they’d be putting their energy into addressing the real threats to women, like domestic abuse, rape and violence as a result of toxic masculinity. But that’s too much like hard work, so trans people are low hanging fruit for lazy keyboard warriors. While the (middle class) women hate on trans, their (working class) male counterparts hate on the immigrants. It all comes from the same root: dissatisfaction with their lives, lack of empathy/connection and not knowing who they really are.

I strongly believe that transgenderism is biologically based and a relatively rare naturally occurring phenomenon, that can be found throughout history and in ancient and indigenous cultures, rather than some modern western construct. They’re here, they’ve always been here and have rights like anyone else.

I believe transgender women are the victims of toxic men in the same way that women are and that there has been a disruption caused by twisted men who take on a transgender identity for their own advantage (prison system is one example). My own (albeit limited) experience of transgender people is that they too have doubts about aspects of modern transgender ideology, but according to this thread, all transgender women are predatory perverts.

Fck TERFs and fck TRAs. Let’s look at what connects us. Live and let live.

You obviously completely underestimate the 'star power' of Sally Wainwright that you think that she could be forced against her will to include a trans character to fulfil some BBC diversity target.

If the BBC have criteria to fulfil for minority representation targets, why isn't there a trans person in other dramas? It's totally obvious, based on interviews with the writer and her choice of a very trans-inclusive song writing duo to write the songs, that she wanted this character in her drama.