Children asked to spy on parent

[MrJonson]

Hi All,

Long time reader, first time poster here. 👋

I’ve been separated for just over a year. Not divorced yet but my ex has recently moved out of the former matrimonial home (FMH).

I have three kids (12/12/8) and found out recently that my ex asked the 12 y/o to report to them in real time if they were ever left alone in the house or if they have late nights (time undefined) at my house.

My seperation is fast becoming arbitrary and high conflict as I continue to set boundaries with the ex: Ex took kids to their longtime counsellor without telling me, moved them from their old GP to a new one, moved out of the FMH and cancelled all of the utilities, even those in joint names.

Am I being unreasonable calling this behaviour out by saying the below via email?

Where do people think I stand in the eyes of Family Court / CAFCASS if I call this out and set another boundary?

I understand you have asked the children to inform you about aspects of their time with me.

Children should never be placed in the middle of parental dynamics or made to feel responsible for monitoring or reporting on their parents.

This is not in their best interests and must stop immediately.

I will continue to keep you informed about anything important regarding their health, safety, or wellbeing, and I expect the same in return.

The children are not intermediaries in matters between us; your behaviour must stop and this boundary must be fully respected.

All views gratefully received, thanks!

Whats the relevance. Will it affect the advice given

The ex sounds a nightmare. I take it she is the mum

Why do you think they get annoyed? Inappropriate or abusive behaviour doesnt change by gender.

You dont speak for 'mumsnet users'

I couldnt give a shit what sex someone is, I take the situation at face value and give advice based on that.

You can guarantee that if someone thinks its a man posting they'll find ways to nitpick, attack and find the other party blameless. Always happens.

How is he hiding his sex with that username?

Even without it, the posts read like a man straight out the gate.

Hi,
I had a horrendous separation which went on for six years before I was left alone. I ended up going to court to have boundaries put around and protect DC. After that there was more mediation to try and get things onto a more amicable footing. But if you can make mediation work first of all, that would be better.
For me, it was like a punishment because I initiated the separation as well as a form of control which had been the pattern of our marriage and why I initiated the separation. It was hard work and very expensive to get things to an amicable footing.

What you should consider and this is the phrasing you should use is what is in the best interests of the DC. It is clearly not in the interests of the DC to be used as a channel of communication or to be weaponised. Howevet, I would not necessarily accuse your ex of doing this, but if you put anything in writing try to understand what her concerns are and centre the DC. What I mean here is this:

It is in the interests of the DC to be allowed to develop their own relationships with each parent and to speak freely one way or the other as they choose. It is also in the interests of the DC for you and your ex to be able to discuss any concerns you have about DC with each other first and foremost and be as much as possible on the same page.

That is to say, ask your ex to come to you with any concerns she has and be open to discussing them. Try and de-escalate and dial down the acrimony because it is very easy to get sucked into something which is adversarial and the winners here are the lawyers. Focus on your DC and what their interests are and centre that in all your communications.

One of the best pieces of advice I got, and it really changed how I approached things, was that the courts would not care about what had happened in the past, but it mattered what I/we wanted to do going forward.

(I do wonder, and none of this changes what I say above, whether what is behind this is that your ex would rather look after the DC if they are to be left alone, because moving to 50:50 is an adjustment for her. I don’t think this is a reason for her to talk directly to the DC about this and ask them what does on in your house because one of the basic boundaries is that each parent parents as they wish on ‘their’ time. But I can see that - if either of you did wish to go out of an evening and you live close together - your more ideal situation in time is that the other would facilitate it. That’s probably a few years down the line though. And maybe in an ideal world rather than reality - my ex still would absolutely not take DC so I can do something, because me having DC is one way he can still control that I can’t go out. I think your ex is doing the opposite, she is still at the stage of adjusting to not having DC there all the time).

Are your children happy to be left at home for a bit? Are they mature enough to be safe?

Late nights are detrimental so really you do need to ensure they get enough sleep.

Im assuming you are doing these things and your ex isn't just pulling it out of her arse.

If you cant agree between the two of you then suggest mediation. That would show you want to co-parent well.

Why would you think someone with a "Mr" username was hiding his sex?

No, but deliberately concealing your sex and the sex of the person you are talking about in the hope of getting more sympathetic answers is dishonest and annoying. Just be open from the start.

I bet you wouldn't say that if OP was female. This sort of post is why the OP didn't want to advertise his sex. OPs ex is behaving very poorly, you shouldn't minimize her behaviour because 'mothers know best'. That's just sexist nonsense.

Sometimes it does.

there are behaviours which if performed by a man are more likely to raise a concern than if the same behaviour was performed by a woman.

Men are many many times more likely to engage in coercive control or violence. They are quicker to escalate and more likely too weaponise children.

it’s reasonable to take that into account when considering a post where the OP is alleging the wife is being controlling based on behaviours which could equally be interpreted as protective

I asked just to be sure before i answered because the op seemed like a man to me (and with the user name) and I wanted to see if my sense was right. I’ve had a Mr Username before and im female. I’m autistic for relevance.

regardless of sex of parent, you are entitled to leave 12 year olds for a short time during the day. How long were they left for?

regardless of sex of parent children need a good nights sleep before school. Do you regularly keep them up late?

regardless of sex of parent a parent is entitled to take their children to counselling. Why do you object to that? That is surely a good thing?

regardless of sex of parent, why would you think that your ex would continue to have their name on utility bills once they have moved out?

regardless of sex of parent, who traditionally has taken the children to medical appointments? If it has been your wife, then I can understand that she would want that to be near her new residence.

regardless of sex of parent, were there any allegations of abuse from either of you that would mean that mediation would be unwise?

you should ask for all the contested issues to be decided in court.

That isn't true in this case at all, though. The OP:s ex is clearly being controlling and highly unreasonable.

Why would anyone get more sympathetic answers if they are one sex and not the other? You're agreeing that one sex will be seen as the problem regardless of the truth. Is that how you personally asses situations or are you saying that is the tone of the site and you do not?

What has been the dynamic in terms of work / looking after the children to date? Statistically women are likely to remain in the FMH because usually, but not always, they take the lead on looking after the children.

Has there been physical or mental abuse? Did you offer to leave the FMH or was she pressured into leaving?

I think you should discuss your approach to looking after the children. I would not have left my DC aged 12 alone at home while I went into town and DH would have respected my view. I don’t think it is unreasonable that your ex knows the children are being left in the home without adult supervision. In the future there will be ,
many other decisions to make, can they go into town, can they go into town alone, can they go out in the evening, can they go on sleepovers, can they go on holiday etc. etc. it is better if you can work together to place the children first.

Thank you.

and the bit I wasn’t going to say but I will now.

I had a controlling ex. Before it was recognised. He thought it was ok to keep primary aged kids up til after midnight on a school night. He thought he should have them at a GP near him (I moved) but that was a 20 mile round trip for me to take them to the GP. Similar with dentist and orthodontist.

He also was incredibly angry that I cancelled all the bills in my name after talking to him for months and he wouldn’t move the bills to his name. So I cancelled them. The sky was a particular issue. I couldn’t have sky at my new address as I couldn’t afford it, but they continued to take the DD and he wouldn’t pay me the money back. So sadly one day the sky went pop.

How was it decided that your ex would leave the matrimonial home? What caused the breakdown of the relationship? How is custody/contact arranged at the moment? What would your ex say about the separation and why she left and what would she say about the situation about leaving the kids home alone?

Mumsnet users are overwhelmingly female so mostly tend to assume that the OP is female as well. I wouldn't be less sympathetic to a man than a woman but I don't like feeling deceived.

Also. My ex told me if I wanted to leave him I would leave with the clothes on my back and nothing else. And I had to put as much as I could into my car and leave. I and my children were homeless and in a hostel for a period of time until I got a council house.

Usually the mother stays in the FMH with the children. What were the circumstances that led to it being her that moved out? That is unusual unless there is violence or other abuse.

With three children being with one parent, I think it is inevitable that the 12 year olds may be left for brief periods- eg if the younger one needs collecting from a club or a friend’s house. This is fine and normal. Worth checking each time that the older ones are ok with it perhaps - but their mum will need to do this too.
Do you have a Ring doorbell or similar?
I think you are doing the right thing by trying to not involve the children - I suspect your ex wants more than 50% care of the children and is trying to sabotage your time - so don’t sink to that level and keep detailed records. Hope it all works out.

This isnt true. It is just that we see much of the controlling and violent behaviour by women as understandable and warranted. We minimise it as part of our own (internalised) misogyny.

You see if we admit to ourselves that women are incapable of meeting the expectations that we set of men, we can't complain when they oppress and discriminate against us. We've admitted that we will scream and shout and become spiteful when wronged, because we can't help it as little, weak, fickle women. And because we are so little and weak, it doesn't matter if we do hit someone because we don't have the power that men do, anyway. So our punches arent real punches.

And we are so insecure and dependent on our man, that OF COURSE we need to be able to dictate when and where he goes out and who he speaks to because we must be made to feel secure and of course we can violate normal boundaries to make sure we aren't being exploited. Oh and of course we are the extra special mummies who love our children more than any daddy could so we must have the final say on child rearing (and then take the brunt of it since we decide it all).

I'd much prefer that we have the same standards and expectations of adult behaviour from both sexes.

We have no idea if it’s true or not.

even on the OPs reading the mother has:

taken her DC to their regular counsellor - not just not unreasonable but positively sensible

changed her DCs dr - would be interested to know why this is a big deal? If mum usually takes the DC to their regular counsellor dr and the new dr is more convenient since she has moved out seems reasonable

asked her DC to let her know if they’re home alone or having a late night - whether this is problematic depends entirely on the circumstances. Maybe she’s building a case against her ex, maybe the DC have been left in circumstances that they didn’t like.

Cancelled the bills - she doesn’t live in the house anymore, it’s irritating but not the worst crime. Maybe she’s building was being vindictive, maybe she couldn’t get either OP or the utility companies to cooperate.

What we do know about the OP is he is the type of person to send that dreadful email which definitely rings alarm bells

You shouldnt feel deceived because someone isnt the sex you wrongly assumed they were. It really shouldn't make a difference at all.

So when you say your ex moved the kids out of the FMH, do you mean that you were both living there, and your ex then decided to move out? If that is the case I think you are painting them in a bad light, they shouldn't have gone on living with you.

Just because you were the one who refused to move out I don't think they should have had to keep their name on all the bills for the property you are living in. It would leave them in an incredibly risk position, and presumably they are now having to pay all the bills for their new home too.

Is there any counselling your DC can access? I just wonder if a third party might help them navigate this.

Personally I’d tell the DC that if they have any worries about being left alone to tell you first as their interests are most important to you. Reassure them they don’t have to report anything back they feel uncomfortable with but equally anything they share with their DM is ok to share with you too, so there are no secrets.

You new round here?