To think that it's about time islamic fundamentalism is dissected and challenged

[diddlysquatagain]

Did anyone read the very interesting article by Matthew Syed (sorry if behind a paywall) - Sunday Times: 'One thing has been holding back the Middle East for centuries':
https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/middle-east-religious-fanaticism-iran-kcvh5knn3

"The Middle East was once the centre of the intellectual world. Then it went into reverse. The problem then, as now, is Islamic fundamentalism. No peace or prosperity is possible until the madrassas and other machines of indoctrination are confronted"

It's such a tough one.

I real feel the poor Muslims in this country that are bloody decent humans and get tarred by the extremists. It must bring with it a sense of anxiety everytime they (or worse; their children) step out of their front doors. They must fear being judged and discriminated.

That said: I do think there's a fear of peeking behind what goes on in mosques. A fear of asking questions to better understand why and how extremism is fostered. The values of Islam still hold some quite misogynistic concepts (women not being able to pray when menstruating, etc) it isn't compatible with western values and causes a clash.

I understand both sides.

Absolutely.

Comparison shut down as not relevant or whataboutism
All Muslims are being umbrella-ed as fundamental, when Christian fundamentalists are "not the same"
Calls of "we're not racist" when being very racist
Anecdotes from people with good Muslim friends are discarded, but anti-Islamic anecdotes of are regarded as sweeping facts.
No understanding of real people
Suggesting people visit towns they've already said they live in as if that will change anything.

It's a hate thread, pure and simple. Nobody here is disregarding terrorist individuals, but the bigotry can be seen from space.

So how do we manage to talk about IE and the stark truths inherent in IE without being branded a bigot? I personally know of female muslim women whose families would not be regarded as IE yet are victims of their own faith. How do we talk about this without being branded a bigot? With dangerous messages being preached in mosques how do we talk about this without being branded a bigot?

I’d be more worried about the increasing rise of ERW radicalisation - a very current trend.

Just today I heard from a friend from school. White British C of E (but not observant) Background. She had a younger sister who would be in her early 30s now. They were average girls/young women, always engaged in studies or work but had active social lives too.

Apparently, about 8 years ago (going by her kid's ages), she became penpals with a guy in the US Military from a Mormon background (I think). Well now she is living there, signed up to the church, shares all this kind of pro-life propaganda and has fallen out with numerous family members and friends. She had a child who was preteen when she went and the child is apparently fully converted to and won't see their dad who is concerned about it all.

They don't let their girls wear trousers or do "boy things". I assume this goes for boys too, they just don't have any.

I’m sure if there were over a quarter of a million
Christian extremists on the MI5 terrorist watchlist (280,000 adjusted for the Christian population of the UK), there were extremist priests in churches calling for non Christians to be killed, teachers having to go into hiding for offending Christianity (or having their heads chopped off in the street) and groups of intimidating Christian men outside schools protesting about the same, there wouldn’t be an such issue in discussing it and attempts to shut down discussion by calling people bigots.

Christian’s being slaughtered, persecuted and displaced in the Middle East and Africa might get more media attention and some Christian UK MPs might even have been elected using that platform.

Imagine if a Christian MP had said he was pleased that supporters of a majority Muslim football team would be banned from attending a match held in the UK because Christian mobs might attack them and the police wouldn’t be able to cope!

Excellent post.

I breathed such a sigh of relief reading the first few pages, that finally, finally we can openly discuss these issues and talk openly without being terrified of the 'R' word being flung or the -phobic suffix. It's refreshing to see an articulate and firm viewpoint from many without all the hyperbole to apologise for their legitimate views.

I have Muslim friends. But they are not Islamists . Those Whataboutery posters insist that to be worried about Islam encroaching on society is to be racist, and racist against any Muslim.

My friend has a professional job, wears ordinary clothes, has ordinary dcs (one of whom is ds’s friend), sings in a rock choir, goes on holiday etc etc.

On this thread people are expressing concern about very large communities where the women are covered, subjugated, just serve men and breed, where Mosques and Imams have a great deal of control, where cousin marriage is approved of, and - worst of all - think this country’s values are inferior and their own must prevail.

On a side note - apparently to listen to music is “haram”. How flippin’ miserable!

It is a hate thread, you’re right. Islamophobia has been building up on Mumsnet for a couple of years - clearly been targeted by certain groups. Shame. Needs to be challenged but these kind of groups are a closed circuit and so pointless, I’ve realised. Off to a happier place!

It’s not Islamophobia to talk about the threats of Islamism.

I personally am relieved that more and more people are discussing this without fear. It’s long overdue.

No it’s not, I agree. It was a way to close down discussion.

Yes, yes to this! And within the group of Muslim people I know there is similar concern - I know some who have also fled heavily Islamised areas, They don’t want any association of the increasing extremist views within those predominantly Muslim areas. They are frightened of their sons and daughters being dragged in the extremist views surrounding them..They are fully integrated into British society whilst still being Muslim. They are terrified of Britain becoming the society from which they or their parents fled.

it’s only if you have experienced these heavily Islamic areas of Britain perhsps that you can see the issue -maybe you need to have lived in an area which has been fundamentally changed by Islamic culture to know the real threat. And that threat is to integrated Muslims too (perhaps even more so)

Bit yes, people are waking up, just like with the TRA movement- let’s hope it’s not too late.

100% this.

Another excellent and succinct post. The naiveté of the white middle class left is astounding and troubling. The one about Muslims having sleepovers with the white kids and hanging out with 'the gays' really sealed it .

Absolutely.

Except that you are just making that up.

PPs on this thread are very careful not to make sweeping generalisations, careful to point out that there are many Muslims who don’t agree with the extremists views and acknowledgment in fact that they are here to get away from those,

Can you provide these examples of racism you claim? I haven’t seen any and Mumsnet is very hot on deleting that.

Suggesting people visit towns they've already said they live in as if that will change anything.

I think that comment was because you were claiming there were absolutely zero integration/culture clash issues in a certain area when PPs who live there are reporting all sorts of problems.

You do know the people can read the actual thread and see that you are utterly misrepresenting everything? Or do you hope that people will be lazy and just read your fabrication?

The bigotry is only coming from the type of people trying to stop us talking.

But we have engaged in good faith with those who think differently , like you and awkward but you just call us hateful and racist and misrepresent what we say.

Maybe you need to reread the thread and reflect?

Did you also miss my post about my friend who was born Muslim (as so many are) with no option. She didn’t want to live by the unbelievably restrictive rules for girls applied by her Muslim community so the price she paid for freedom to live as she chose was excommunication by her family.

As far as they are concerned she is dead.

Explain how that fits into your ‘you’re all racist and anti-Muslim’ narrative.

Have you ignored all the voices of actual moderate Muslims on these threads that also don’t want increasing power to imams to ignore UK law and impose stricter rules?

My parents were born in Yemen and they left in 1949 after the Yemenite Jews were targeted and unable to work and live peacefully as Jews. They were unwilling to convert to Islam so they were pushed out by the government. They came to the UK and worked hard to learn English and ensure that their children were as English as possible including not speaking Yemenite Arabic at home. I have not been to Yemen because they do not allow Jews into the country, but I can tell you all that there is a huge difference between being a Muslim and being an Islamist. Muslims have strong values and education ethos, but the Muslims in the Middle East are under enormous pressure to become religious, leave being secular and follow the doctrines. Unfortunately there are now many MENA countries with Islamist governments who insist on Islamic law being their society law. Things like hijab/burkha for girls and women, FGM, beards for men, using fear and expectations to control the people. This cannot work in society. It suppresses freedoms of choice and creates an environment of fear rather than ethics. Lebanon and Iran used to be incredibly diverse and advanced countries, but now they have exiled or converted their minorities and created Islamic autocratic states. A country which controls and suppresses 50% of their population by removing their rights to drive, show their faces, access to education is not a thriving society. It makes me angry when I see people trying to defend this because it shows lack of knowledge. Being a Muslim is embracing a dynamic and beautiful culture and religion, but being an Islamist betrays them by making control, misogyny and violence a way of life rather than investing in furthering their people and their communities. I am starting to see signs in the uk of Islamic ideology becoming commonplace and this is leading to Islamophobia and hatred towards our Muslim brothers and sisters. We need to be sure we have an understanding of what happens when religious Muslim men take control without any secular or modern theorem. I hope we can start to change this within our Muslim communities and hope that people try to understand the dangers of embracing an ideology that subjugates and abuses women and uses fear to control people. I also get upset with the level of Islamophobia here and hope that the Muslim community can find a way to take responsibility for creating a more positive and realistic impression of how wonderful our Muslim communities are.

Thank you for sharing your account.

This is very useful as it introduces the distinction between the radicalises and the integrative Muslins that we need.

This conversation has, until very recently, been suppressed here and so we are missing important language to distinguish between the Muslims who are keen to live peacefully and harmoniously with British values and customs (to a practical extent) and those who refuse to integrate, wish to maintain their practices that are incompatible with life in a respectable and tolerant society.

I hear moderate Muslims saying that they came here to get away from the radical Islamist practices but they get ignored by the ‘virtuous’ left.

The efforts of some on the left to prevent this important conversation by screaming ‘racist’ and ‘Islamophobe’ every time we say something like ‘I don’t think child or first cousin marriage is ok’ or ‘I find the burqa a divisive and inappropriate mode of dress’ are actually causing some of the tension that is affecting us all including the ‘integrative’ Muslims.

More open conversation in this is absolutely crucial and I am so grateful for the threads in here that have broken through and are allowing people to express their concerns.

@CrispsPlease

Unfortunately it's hard to win ,extremists can domaine families as well telling parents ( often an " uncle " remember cousin marriages etc )they are not being strict enough and bringing shame
About 25 years ago I had a lovely work friend who had run away from her home because she had fallen in love with a white non muslim and it wasn't her parents who caused trouble it was the uncle.
I've seen and heard this many times since.
The way it lslam is ,makes it hard to argue and get out of.
There is no one figure like the pope for instance with one main definitive stance ,there are thousands of immans who can "interpret " in any way they like and as usual women are trapped here within wheels and wheels of subjugation. From the religion ,family ,cousin Marriages etc

It's very sad to see women repressed like that in a western first world country in 2025.

But I'm glad the truth is coming to light. Because the liberals are so desperate to pedal unrealistic lies such as "they're literally British people just like us. They love the same movies, have problems with periods and blokes, have a range of friends including White women and gay dudes and love a night out on the wine - only difference is they wear a head scarf. Get over it !"

When In truth women are behind closed doors in some families, not allowed out without the husband, not allowed to mix with westerners, against most western values and live in closed communities. En masse in a liberal free thinking, progressive modern country- that is a problem . Social services and police often won't interject to domestic abuse because it's wayyyy too much of a minefield, might get accused of "racism" (very real threat ) so it goes unchallenged and filed under "cultural ".

It's one big well intentioned social experiment gone terribly wrong. These people above don't want to integrate! Westerners are literally the devil incarnate. There's some very interesting threads on Muslim Mumsnetters about how oral sex is viewed (and that's within a marriage !) it's like reading something from the 1800s. Yet you've still got the screechy Sarah's from their all white middle class village (with the only Muslim they know being a liberal third generation native Dr) refusing to see this is how it is.

Yes

also the shame thing

the way the male family members act should bring ‘shame ‘ on the family not the poor women or man who wants to change religion or marry who they want.

it seems stifling, controlling and oppressive

i know Christianity isn’t perfect but at least their is freedom in Christ

Great post! Having read it, I think it would be helpful to recognise the distinction between Muslims and Islamists….

With “Muslims” (with the exception of converts who are few in number relatively) being those with an Islamic heritage who range from very extreme to very secular (unless they’re so secular disavowed the faith completely!)…

And “Islamists” being a large subset of Muslims who are fundamentalists, and have no wish to integrate, are extremely misogynistic, and see the UK as a nation that needs to be proselytised for Islam, and who use British institutions as a vehicle to further that aim (wolves in sheep’s clothing).

Based on these definitions, it is Islamism that the vast majority, if not all, posters on here have an issue with, not Muslims n general. The issue is the Islamist culture that now dominates across many urban centres in this country, with a high proportion of Muslims being part of this.

@awkwardasfuck and @Ellen2shoes It is Islamist culture, with its millions of followers in the UK, that’s the issue. Pretending that it is simply harmless, and the differences are superficial and unimportant, all in the name of “tolerance”.

Well, when “tolerance” is insisted upon even at the cost of women being horribly oppressed, then your “tolerance” is no longer a virtue… rather it’s toxic and delusional, and it is complicit in the appalling abuse and oppression of countless women. You clearly and rightly have no qualms about calling out the Closed Brethren (who are tiny in number), but you refuse to do the same for the far, far more populous, and even more abusive Islamism. Shame on you!

But I'm glad the truth is coming to light. Because the liberals are so desperate to pedal unrealistic lies such as "they're literally British people just like us. They love the same movies, have problems with periods and blokes, have a range of friends including White women and gay dudes and love a night out on the wine - only difference is they wear a head scarf. Get over it !"

Another great post… Particularly loved this extract! Brilliant!

The depths of denial and delusion of the Left on this is very similar to the trans issue. After years of trying to coerce, browbeat and cancel their way to forcing everyone to accept that, the public (by and large) turned and said “enough” and expressed what they really thought, unafraid any longer of the Left’s attempts to dictate the narrative and bully into compliance.

It’s the same with Islamism…. More and more people are also saying “enough”, and attempts to get them back in line with the old accusations of being “far right” or “racist” just don’t work any more. @awkwardasfuck / @Ellen2shoes We can see through the bullshit of your warped tolerance for horrific misogyny, and we won’t be kept silent!